At last, our long county nightmare is over. Just in case our hundreds of thousands of square feet of excess retail space currently under construction comes up short — something that keeps me up at nights — Richmond-based New Era Properties has submitted plans to the county to rezone 87 acres just north of 64, Jessica Kitchin reports in today’s Progress. They plan a whopping 400,000 square feet (or 9 acres) of commercial space, featuring department stores and a large home improvement store. There is no plan for a residential component.
News and meta-news about Charlottesville, VA, since 2001.
Sideblog
Police announced this afternoon that their investigation into what was initially believed to be a fatal fire on Rugby Avenue is now a homicide investigation. #
The Virginia Supreme Court has denied George Huguely’s appeal. His second-degree murder conviction will stand, WRIC reports. #
In a carefully worded story, and not citing specific sources, WTVR reports that forensic evidence belonging to Jesse Matthew Jr., the main suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham, matches forensic evidence collected during the investigation of Morgan Harrington’s 2009 murder. #
In the wake of Hannah Graham’s disappearance, and the evidence that came from private security footage, city officials are revisiting the question of installing security cameras on the downtown mall. #
Both Charlottesville Registrar Sheri Iachetta and former Electoral Board member Stephanie Commander have turned themselves in to the police on
foursix and four felony counts of embezzlement, respectively. #Ten years ago, the National Institutes of Health budget doubled and schools like the University of Virginia built massive new research facilities. A decade later, those buildings remain largely underutilized. NPR visits UVA in this story on the effect of federal binge and spurge spending in the sciences. #
In 2012, Council approved a new student housing complex on West Main—now some council members are questioning whether what they were shown matches what was built. #
The Architectural Review Board has approved a bike-themed mural on West Market, below the McGuffey Art Center, although at least one member expressed concerns that it might look like the bicyclists were riding away from Charlottesville’s downtown. #
City Police Chief Tim Longo is meeting with city leaders to work on protocols regarding the use of military surplus police weapons in Charlottesville. #
A 100-year-old Colonnades resident received military honors for her service in the WWII Women’s Army Corps #
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I’m glad you stay up at night planning the layout for such urban sprawls. I can’t wait for Home Depot. Good thing there is no residential component, because all these people moving to this area is annoying. Growth must be avoided at all costs, along with HDTV.
Cool. no more going to the Gateway to Fairfax County – Rt 29 to Lowes and Sams. Anyone know if they are planning an exit off of 64?
It is on an exit. Maybe it will have an IKEA and a Nordstroms and a Trader Vics and a Trader Joes and a SmartCar dealership and a Tiffanies and a feed store.
And a Ukrops.
I`ll stick with Short Pump Towne Center. 50 miles or so from Keswick and an easier drive than to the dumps on 29N.
Added bonus. Polite service.
I`ll stick with Short Pump Towne Center. 50 miles or so from Keswick and an easier drive than to the dumps on 29N.
Added bonus. Polite service.
YET ANOTHER DAMN SHOPPING CENTER! WE DON”T NEED NO MORE STINKIN’ SHOPPING CENTERS!
All I can say when I see what we are doing to our countryside is quote Woody Guthrie: “See what your greed for money has done.”
Major retail development for 5th St and Avon…
As reported in last Saturday’s Daily Progress, Albemarle County is reviewing a rezoning application for the property between 5th Street and Avon Street just over the border from the City of Charlottesville. The project, named 5th Street — Avon Center…
I visited the County Office Building today and got a few more details on this
project called 5th Street — Avon Center.
The image on our blog is a bit crude, but it shows you the basic layout.
Brian Wheeler
You know, I moved here because there was very little local shopping of the type I like. I personally like to drive a bit for my shopping pleasure. At this rate, I can convince my husband to move to Nelson and the (sub)urban lifestyle he adores will be on the doorstep within a couple years.
That’s very helpful — thanks so much, Brian.
If you want the arial map, use Yahoo Maps beta http://maps.yahoo.com/beta/ instead of Google maps for that area. Google maps has a bug with missing rectangles there, and has for months.
The site was an interesting farm house, owner-occupied IIRC. I went to a party there back in the day. Then it burned, then an industrial building went up. The Cville ran a story on its recent history back the last time it was almost developed, as a supposed Target.
On the arial photo you can still see the circular driveway where the house was.
What ever happened to the YASC abbreviation? I kinda liked it. Again I am on the lonely pro growth side of things. I think these new places bring more jobs to the area which will force businesses to compete more actively for employees leading (hopefully) to an increase in wages. Also, I am sure the residents of the Southern urban ring will be happy to have a new connector road between Avon and 5th. As we have seen with the North Grounds Connector Road when private officials plan on building roads they typically get it done in a timely and efficient (monetary) manner. In addition to the connector road I am sure those same residents will be happy to not have to venture all the way to 29 North to find shopping. And Finally, let’s try to take the emotion out of this thing and really look at the location of this project: it is right outside the city limits, not in Keswick not in North Garde not even in Crozet but right outside of the city limits.
BTW I find these two quotes best respond to the assertion that there is an excess in retail space here:
“Larry Banner, vice president with the Charlottesville Regional Chamber of Commerce, said the chamber hasn’t done research on whether such “destination” shopping is in high demand. “But anecdotally, there has been a sense of retail leakage – people in our region going elsewhere to do shopping,” he said. “That’s one indication that there’s room for more opportunity in the Charlottesville region.””
“Blaine said research has indicated there is a demand for such commercial space in the area. “There’s no question about it,” he said.”
The only way that there’d be a net increase in jobs is if a Home Depot (or whatever else is there) brought people into this market who would not normally come to Albemarle County.
In the case of Home Depot, one just opened in Waynesboro, there’s one in Harrisonburg, and there are a few in and around Richmond. I can’t see that it’ll do anything other than cannibalize Lowe’s business. Ditto for grocery stores — opening more of them doesn’t result in people eating more food. Perhaps the grocery store will create fifteen new jobs, but that will be ten less jobs in other area grocery stores.
The local grocery market is already way over saturated, and this is before the new grocery store opens at the soon-to-be-built Blue Ridge Shopping Center in Crozet.
Yet another doesn’t make a lot of sense.
“The only way that there’d be a net increase in jobs is if a Home Depot (or whatever else is there) brought people into this market who would not normally come to Albemarle County.”
And and an example of this is……? The massive layoffs at Wal Mart that didn’t occur after the opening of Target?
One And*
There are three reasonable responses.
1. More stores does not mean that the population has more money to spend, ergo, resources will be redistributed. Imagine a town of one. Population: You. You have an income of $50,000/year. There is one store in this town, a Wal-Mart. You have $15,000 available to spend there each year. A Target opens. Do you now have $30,000 to spend in total? Or still $15,000? Extrapolate.
2. The manager of the local Wal-Mart might well argue that, in fact, they have laid off several employees, or at least failed to fill the positions when they became vacant, and scaled back their expansion plans, all in response to reduced business because of Target. A clerk there told me a couple of weeks ago that they’re chronically understaffed — she has to work late every day. Does that sound like a business that’s got enough employees?
3. There is some argument to be made that Target attracted people who would not normally shop in Albemarle. I have no idea if that’s true, but that was suggested repeatedly when it was under construction.
The truth probably lies somewhere between those three.
As a city resident who lives in the Southern ring, I am pretty happy about this. While working on home projects, I have been known to drive to Lowe’s multiple times in a single weekend, wasting my time and lots of gas. I would much rather a Home Depot open near my neighborhood than trying to cram in yet another residential tract (of course, that’s already happening). And as has already been pointed out, this is not farm land or park land; it’s just a big empty lot within the city limits and very near a freeway exit. Seems like a winner to me.
I’m guessing that if it were in the city, they wouldn’t be going to the county with their plans.
Strangely enough, I recall the city did try to influence the decision the last time this very piece of land was almost developed (for the supposed Target). Maurice Cox may have been behind that. He was very protective of 5th Street and didn’t even like the speed limit there being 45 mph when most other “entrance roads” to the city were at 35 and 25. Strange guy, but of course he had a point, indirectly, about 5th Street having been planned as a four-lane thoroughfare all the way to McIntire and the 250 Bypass. Like Preston Avenue, it was a wipeout operation through a black neighborhood. The only reason 5th/Ridge is two lanes through its historic district now is that politics had changed by the time the RR bridge by the fire station was rebuilt in the late 1980’s. Sorry to go off-topic.
Semi is a good example of something: the shopping may not bring *new* people in but it may encourage those already in Albemarle to shop more often because it it more convient than driving the extra 10 miles (20 minutes sometimes) to shopping up 29. The fact is Waldo the number of employees in the Charlottesville metro area has been on the increase for years, every single jurisdiction in the Charlottesville metro area is growing, incomes are going up, and these retail stores are not in the game of losing money so when they say the market can sustain their presence I tend to believe them.
“A clerk there told me a couple of weeks ago that they’re chronically understaffed — she has to work late every day. Does that sound like a business that’s got enough employees?”
I am not sure how that proves your point. Doesn’t seem to suggest that even with target Wal Mart still has enough business where it is “chronically understaffed.” To answer your question no it doesnt sound like they have enough employees….Doesn’t that mean that there is more help needed? More spots they need to fill?
These retails stores are also not generally in the game of community building or other things that residents may be valuing more than shopping convenience or retail money making. Clearly, you can make money at many things, but that is not necessarily a good reason for their existence.
I don’t want to put words in Waldo’s mouth, UVA08, but I think that his reference to the understaffing issue is a reference to a very common occurence in the world of employment: when cash is tight, it’s cheaper to work a few employees to death, than to actually staff up to the levels your business truly requires. Each new, full-time employee represents a need to provide benefits, at a not inconsiderable additional cost. Even if it involves paying a bit of overtime, it’s still cheaper to work your current staff harder, than to hire.
Getting back to city influence the last time around, a previous proposal for this site used only city streets for access: so the county would get all of the sales tax revenue and the city would pay for the potholes. It put the city in the position of being able to nix the street infrasctructure and without roads the county turned down the proposal. It sounds like this time they’re adding the access in the county which should make smooth the way for the developer.
Beyond the road issue, the previous developer had an ‘unnamed’ big box store that was pretty widely believed to be Wal-mart and city residents from the adjacent area were effectively loud at a number of public meetings and in a letter writing campaign. Zoning by cacophony — and long may it wave.
“when cash is tight, it’s cheaper to work a few employees to death, than to actually staff up to the levels your business truly requires. Each new, full-time employee represents a need to provide benefits, at a not inconsiderable additional cost. Even if it involves paying a bit of overtime, it’s still cheaper to work your current staff harder, than to hire. ”
Coudln’t you bypass this “problem” of paying benefits while maximizing the efficency of your current full time employees by hiring part time workers?
“These retails stores are also not generally in the game of community building or other things that residents may be valuing more than shopping convenience or retail money making.”
They are also not in the game of tearing down communities either. If a community is no longer a desirable place to live then your customer base begins to dry up.
“More stores does not mean that the population has more money to spend, ergo, resources will be redistributed. Imagine a town of one. Population: You. You have an income of $50,000/year. There is one store in this town, a Wal-Mart. You have $15,000 available to spend there each year. A Target opens. Do you now have $30,000 to spend in total? Or still $15,000? Extrapolate.”
For one thing this response would require us to analyze the situation as if the current population will remain at it’s current level, which we all know isn’t so. Like I said, every single jurisdiction in the Charlottesville metro area is growing (and that doesn’t even include counties like Lousia, Madison, or Orange). So I guess that too kind of answers your statement a while back when you said:
“The only way that there’d be a net increase in jobs is if a Home Depot (or whatever else is there) brought people into this market who would not normally come to Albemarle County.”
because really there are new people added to our market every year just from population growth.
In response to your available income statement: say someone in the Southern Urban Ring does have 15,000 to spend on retail products every year but only spends 10,000 of that income on retail because the costs, in terms of time and energy, of driving to 29 North outweigh the pleasure they would have gotten from buying whatever it is they needed from there. That’s 5,000 out of the market that would have been subjected to a sales tax that in turn could have been used for roads, schools, health care programs, etc.
Finally, I am just curious what kind of project you all opposed to this project would be satisfied with? It’s right outside the city limits, surrounded by developments, and on a free exit. I just don’t see the problem with this project.
I wrote …
Duh. Yes, I should have written “just outside of city limits”. What I really meant to convey is that this location is not in that vast expanse north of Barracks Road that I collectively refer to as “the county”.
I was one of those city residents who protested the idea of another “Big Box” retailer at that location. But a Home Depot and other, smaller shops? Yeah, we could definitely use those.
First I’m going to say I agree with Waldo on this subject- more businesses doesn’t mean people are spending more money it just means more competition to divvy up the pie.
But just for the fun of it I thought I’d toss this idea out as well. Does it sound like a business that’s got enough employees? It might not have enough employees. And that might be reflective of lower profits in a competitive market place. But remember this is let’s squeeze blood from a rock “Walmart.” The Walmart who’s motto is “save money whenever and where-ever possible” and makes their corporate big-wigs fly coach.
I think it’s more likely that they’re understaffed because operating that way makes them even more profitable. And I’ve never seen a business where they would fully staff, if they could get it done with less.
I really don’t have strong opinions in favor or against this possible new commercial development. I’ve been irritated often enough with Lowes that I wouldn’t mind seeing some competition. But it looks like they will end up bulldozing a big hill to build the commercial space. And that’s sad.
Elizabeth wrote:
That’s really interesting — I had no idea. Thanks for that background.
UVA08 wrote:
Inevitably, there will be — and must be — growth of commercial services to match the growth of the population. But the population growth does not appear to have been at the sort of rate that justifies the tremendous expansion in retail square footage currently underway. I forecast that by 2010 we’re going to see at least one major shopping center in the area closing up shop. I fear that will be one of the shopping centers closer to town, which will only increase the rate at which Charlottesville sprawls out into the surrounding county.
I’m opposed to bad overbuilding in Albemarle County. When that’s done, inevitably some shopping centers will fail. But these buildings are not multipurpose, so they’ll go empty or have to be torn down. Back when downtown Charlottesville was built, people knew how to build buildings — those structures can be used for commercial, retail, residential, even light industrial. A Wal-Mart is only useful for a Wal-Mart or another big-box store.
They do abandon those bldgs when it suits them.
But a big antiquers-mall type bldg. in Stanardsville was converted when the owners fled outside the town, fearing the new 33-bypass would take away their business. Joke was on them when old Stanardsville prospered on 33-business. What was it converted to? Section 8 housing. That’s the story I heard.
“I’m opposed to bad overbuilding in Albemarle County. When that’s done, inevitably some shopping centers will fail.”
But what evidence do you have that there is “overbuilding.” According to the quote by the chamber of commerce guy there is evidence that more retail is needed…. What hard evidence do you have to the contrary?
BTW on the job front you all only consider the people working in the stores once they are built. What about the construction workers? Electricians? Engineers? Planning teams?
Let me start by saying that Charlottesville Tomorrow doesn’t take a position for or against these specific development projects. We do however want to make sure people have access to more information about them. One such source of information on the retail absorption issue is available on Charlottesville Tomorrow’s blog. Using data from the County and from an economic consultant working on the Places29 Master Plan [link to the ZHA report], the Southern Environmental Law Center concluded: “Albemarle County has approved or is currently reviewing plans for at least 3.3 million square feet of new shopping centers and other retail space – an over 70% increase in existing retail space and about 2.5 to 3.5 times what its own staff and consultants say the community can reasonably absorb….” This research does not include the 400,000 sq.ft. proposed for 5th Street-Avon Center.
The community needs to ask when we are considering a rezoning request (like this one or like North Pointe near Airport Rd. on US29-public hearing 8/2/06) whether the development is in the right place and whether it is coming at the right time to benefit the community as a whole (City and County)?
As has been well documented by County staff and the Places29 consultants, there is a large amount of additional retail development already approved for the 29 North corridor that threatens to exceed the limits as to what can be reasonably absorbed. Market forces do have an important role to play, however shopping centers like North Pointe, designed to draw from a regional customer base, are inextricably linked to traffic and potential impacts on our quality of life.
The 5th Street-Avon Center project should also be examined with the issues of transportation, retail absorption, and the community needs in mind.
Brian Wheeler
No, what Larry said was: “But anecdotally, there has been a sense of retail leakage – people in our region going elsewhere to do shopping.” “Anecdotally” meaning that some folks have said that, presumably the sort of people who talk to the Chamber. Anecdotally, I’ve heard the opposite, presumably because I’ve talked to different people. It’ll take an actual study to have a decent understanding of the truth since, of course, just having some conversations with some people isn’t a particularly good way to know.
According to an actual study, conducted by the Southern Environmental Law Center:
I cannot imagine how we will absorb a 75% increase in retail. A 75% increase in population in the next few years? A 75% increase in people driving here? A 75% increase in all of our disposable incomes?
Any ideas? I’ve got nothin’.
They’re quite often brought in from elsewhere to do the construction. That was the same argument made when the power plants were being built in…was it Louisa? The companies insisted that they’d hire lots of local people, but then Meredith Richards went in and videotaped the license plates of the cars in the lot and not one was from Virginia.
It’s nice that some folks get jobs building things, but what they’re building is likely damaging to the area. That’s a lousy tradeoff, a clear financial loser.
Remember, too, that unemployment is extremely low in Charlottesville. “It’ll create jobs” just isn’t a compelling argument here.
Oh, and what Brian said. :)
Well here is another quote from the site lawyer who has his own research:
“Steven Blaine, a lawyer who is working on the project through New Era Properties LLC, said the plans include discount department stores and a large home improvement store that are meant to make the shopping center a destination.
Blaine said research has indicated there is a demand for such commercial space in the area. “There’s no question about it,” he said.”
“Remember, too, that unemployment is extremely low in Charlottesville. “It’ll create jobs” just isn’t a compelling argument here.”
Why isnt it a compelling argument? Because you already have a job? I am sorry, if there is still unemployment and people still looking for a job “It’ll create jobs” is always a compelling argument for me.
Well of course they think there’s demand. Otherwise they wouldn’t build the shopping center. :)
You’re thinking of unemployment as a monolith, when it’s actually much more complex than that.
Though it’s been a couple of years since I’ve reviewed the numbers, what’s lacking in our area is specialized jobs for well-trained people. For example, when Comdial went out of business, we had a lot of unemployed people who had spent their entire professional careers manufacturing telecom equipment. These are not people who are going to start bagging groceries or hanging drywall. Often they become employed again, but they require retraining (and a significant pay cut) before they start an entirely new career in which they’ll be underemployed for quite a while.
Our unemployment figures don’t reflect a lack of entry-level, blue-collar jobs. They have reflected, at different times, a paucity of demand for programmers, the elimination of manufacturing facilities, and the .com bust.
Much like a rope can never be stretched entirely taut, there will always be unemployment. There is no such thing as 0% unemployment, and there never will be. People leave jobs, people take new jobs, and they’re unemployed between the two. Some people are simply unemployable, whether on the whole or in this market. So it goes.
Waldo, I think you right about the unemployment thing and what kind of jobs are needed here but I keep coming back to the construction workers, engineers, planners, etc. I know they usually go outside of the community but what about the times that they don’t? Like Albemarle Place and Cox Company.
“I cannot imagine how we will absorb a 75% increase in retail. A 75% increase in population in the next few years? A 75% increase in people driving here? A 75% increase in all of our disposable incomes?
Any ideas? I’ve got nothin’.”
First of all the study says: “County-wide, between 3.32 and 3.52 million SF of additional retail space either has been approved or is under review. This would bring total retail space in the County to over 8 million square feet,
an increase of 70 to 75% ”
I find the part that says “has been approved OR IS UNDERREVIEW” to be the most interesting How long has North Pointe been under reveiw? Does under review equal approved?
Obviously not. So that 75% is obviously an inflated number of what is actually coming in the near term. The way the facts are presented you would think that we will have a 75% surge within the next couple of years. Again I ask how long has North Pointe been “under review”?
Secondly, it appears as if the word retail is used rather broadly, don’t you think? Retail is such a large and encompassing term that it could lead you to make over broad assumptions about the market. For example, while there may not be demand for say another Banana Republic (completely throwing out random stores) there may be demand for another home improvement store but no distinction is drawn between the two.
“Well of course they think there’s demand. Otherwise they wouldn’t build the shopping center.”
And in Powerscore’s Logica Reasoning Bible they call that a source attack in the Flaw in Argument section. :-) But seriously, along those same lines of reasoning couldnt you make a similar statement about the Southern Environmental Law Center? Couldn’t you say “of course they don’t see the demand. The construction of the shopping center goes against their general mission of land conservation.”
Just as clarification I should mention that I am not calling for the rezoning and bulldozing of all plots of land in Albemarle County. I am simply stating that I think it is a little outrageous for people to get upset over this proposal given its location and demographics. When you get upset over things like this it kind of takes away your legitmacy which you may need for a real fight. Save your soap boxes for when a developer decides to build a mega shopping center in North Garden or Covesville.
Waldo says:
“More stores does not mean that the population has more money to spend, ergo, resources will be redistributed. Imagine a town of one. Population: You. You have an income of $50,000/year. There is one store in this town, a Wal-Mart. You have $15,000 available to spend there each year. A Target opens. Do you now have $30,000 to spend in total? Or still $15,000? Extrapolate.”
You’re assuming no one in Charlottesville spends a single dollar outside Charlottesville. That assumption is clearly unsupportable. More stores mean fewer dollars spent at those Home Depots in Richmond, Waynesboro, and Harrisonburg. Resources will be redistributed, all right – redistributed back from other, historically less hostile to business communities to Charlottesville.
If you want some anecdotal evidence to counter what you say you’ve been told, I frequently shop in Short Pump because I can’t find what I want in town, or because it’s an easier drive than fighting the traffic all the up 29 N. If Target had put its store somewhere along 64 that would be less true. I do most of my shopping for furniture and for hobbies (on which I’m quite a big spender) elsewhere as well for similar reasons.
And let’s not even start on the dollar drain from C-ville in the realm of adult entertainment… ;-)
UVA08 wrote:
And again, as I said, putting people to work in the name of something harmful hardly seems worth it.
Are you really suggesting that any of these developments will be deep-sixed by the county? I’d happily bet you that every single one of those developments will be approved.
No. I’m not arguing bias. I’m arguing common sense — no corporation would build a shopping center if they didn’t think it would attract customers.
Who’s upset? I wrote a one-paragraph blog entry pointing out that we’re going to have yet another shopping center. If I were on a soap box, you’d know it.
Bruce wrote:
Yes, and I’m also assuming that there’s only one person in the town and one store in the town. It’s a hypothetical for the purpose of making a demonstration. But as I wrote in that same comment, there’s an argument to be made that some of these stores are attracting customers that might not normally make purchases within this market, but that I’ve seen no evidence one way or the other.
That’s not a great argument, though. We could build Disney World Monticello here and it would reduce the number of people going to Florida for their Disney entertainment purposes, but at what cost?
“Who’s upset? I wrote a one-paragraph blog entry pointing out that we’re going to have yet another shopping center. If I were on a soap box, you’d know it.”
Sorry Waldo, I couldnt help but pick up a certain degree of sarcasim and dissappointment in your original posting. I also can’t help but to pick up on a little bit of emotion and hostility in this paragraph. If you scroll through some of the comments you also will see some clear signs of some people being upset. I wasn’t directing that comment directly at you. It was for all to hear. Again, sorry if I am wrong.
“No. I’m not arguing bias. I’m arguing common sense — no corporation would build a shopping center if they didn’t think it would attract customers.”
Is it not common sense that an environmental group would say that more retail is not needed? What’s the difference between what you said about common sense and saying the study conducted by the developer was biased?
“And again, as I said, putting people to work in the name of something harmful hardly seems worth it.”
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. You seem to feel that the harm of this shopping center on Avon/5th Street (whether it be traffic on 5th or otherwise) outweigh the benefits of someone having more work, a southern connector road, and more shopping options. You also appear to believe that the harm of Albemarle Place outweigh the benefits of a local company getting more business (and money), more shopping and residential choices on 29 North. I personally do not.
disappointment*
Sarcasm*
Larry Banner of the Chamber of Commerce is right about people going elsewhere to shop. Like mail order catalogs, or probably most of all, online. Much easier to click a mouse than fight traffic and stand in lines.
I have never shopped anywhere farther north on 29 than Rio Hill, and thats because I work in that vicinity. I have no desire to venture to Target and I absolutely refuse to spend one penny in Wal-Mart. And its not likely I’ll visit most of these new proposed ones. The stores I miss are Safeway and downtown Woolworth’s.Rose’s on Pantops is okay but a far shadow of what the one at Barracks Road was. It still is the closest thing we have left to the five-and-dimes of my youth.
When I’m a soapbox, there’s no “picking up on” or “certain degrees of.” It looks more like this, or this, or this. There’s really no mistaking it, once you’re familiar with it.
There’s nothing inherently bad for the environment about retail stores so, no, that’s not common sense. I didn’t say anybody was biased — in fact, I specifically said “I’m not arguing bias.” In the article, SELC says nothing in opposition to this shopping center, and is quoted only as saying: “We’re not opposed to some new retail at that site, but the amount of retail space being proposed gives us pause, both in the amount of traffic it would generate and because of the huge amount of retail space in the county pipeline. But we look forward to seeing the specifics of the proposal as it comes out.”
Does that sound like an knee-jerk anti-retail response to you?
No I don’t. You’ve already said that I’m opposed to this development, to which I responded that I’m only “opposed to bad overbuilding in Albemarle County.” If we’re going to have a new shopping center, at least this one isn’t on 29N with all of the rest of them.
If a community is a larger form of a family, these new shopping centers are the equivalent of every family member independently going out and buying a new washing machine, with nobody (the mother, say) standing up and saying “wait, wait, wait — this is crazy, we can’t use but so many washing machines.” But nobody says that, so we’ll be left with a bunch of unused washing machines sitting around the house in the name of property rights and economic freedoms.
“There’s nothing inherently bad for the environment about retail stores so, no, that’s not common sense.”
Waldo, give me a break. “There is nothing inherently bad for the environment about retail stores” Are you kidding? So you are saying the pavement the bulldozing of trees and increased traffic in an area isn’t “inherently bad for the environment”? I am waiting to see how you will spin this one.
I didn’t say anybody was biased — in fact, I specifically said “I’m not arguing bias.”
Actually this is my own fault. I allowed myself to continue down this path when that isn’t what I originally said. I said you were going after the SOURCE of the argument. When I posted the statement from the site lawyer you stated regarding his study of retail demand you said:
“Well of course they think there’s demand. Otherwise they wouldn’t build the shopping center. :)”
What was the purpose of this statement as a response to mine if it is not to point out bias or to dismiss their claim because of the source?
“No I don’t. You’ve already said that I’m opposed to this development, to which I responded that I’m only “opposed to bad overbuilding in Albemarle County.” If we’re going to have a new shopping center, at least this one isn’t on 29N with all of the rest of them.”
After the post of mine regarding putting people to work (Albemarle Place) and more shopping options on the Southern end of town (5th/Avon Street). You stated:
“And again, as I said, putting people to work in the name of something harmful hardly seems worth it.”
Again I ask what was the purpose of this statement as it was used in response to mine?