Gangland: not actually an amusement park. (I’m not making that mistake again; sorry, kids.) Also not a word used in Charlottesville newspapers until a few weeks ago, when there was a “gangland-style beating of two teenage boys,” to quote from the Daily Progress. Now the police’s Capt. Chip Harding says that two of the six kids arrested in the attack were not just wannabes, but actual members of the Bloods, John Yellig and Bryan McKenzie write in today’s Progress. As gang activity has spread south from D.C., police around the state have become increasingly vigilant about violent groups like the Crips, the Latin Kings, Mara Salvatrucha. Gangs are nothing new to Charlottesville, but particularly violent gangs or gangs with ties outside of town certainly are.
Sideblog
Police announced this afternoon that their investigation into what was initially believed to be a fatal fire on Rugby Avenue is now a homicide investigation. #
The Virginia Supreme Court has denied George Huguely’s appeal. His second-degree murder conviction will stand, WRIC reports. #
In a carefully worded story, and not citing specific sources, WTVR reports that forensic evidence belonging to Jesse Matthew Jr., the main suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham, matches forensic evidence collected during the investigation of Morgan Harrington’s 2009 murder. #
In the wake of Hannah Graham’s disappearance, and the evidence that came from private security footage, city officials are revisiting the question of installing security cameras on the downtown mall. #
Both Charlottesville Registrar Sheri Iachetta and former Electoral Board member Stephanie Commander have turned themselves in to the police on
foursix and four felony counts of embezzlement, respectively. #Ten years ago, the National Institutes of Health budget doubled and schools like the University of Virginia built massive new research facilities. A decade later, those buildings remain largely underutilized. NPR visits UVA in this story on the effect of federal binge and spurge spending in the sciences. #
In 2012, Council approved a new student housing complex on West Main—now some council members are questioning whether what they were shown matches what was built. #
The Architectural Review Board has approved a bike-themed mural on West Market, below the McGuffey Art Center, although at least one member expressed concerns that it might look like the bicyclists were riding away from Charlottesville’s downtown. #
City Police Chief Tim Longo is meeting with city leaders to work on protocols regarding the use of military surplus police weapons in Charlottesville. #
A 100-year-old Colonnades resident received military honors for her service in the WWII Women’s Army Corps #
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I’m remembering this quote, from another poster, made in a different thread the last time the subject of gangs in Cville came up:
And then this quote:
To which Waldo responded:
Now that a national gang is trying to get a foothold in Cville, do we care to re-visit our opinions on this issue?
You think crime is bad now? Let a couple of these gangs get themselves established in Cville… then sit back and watch what happens.
Since when does having out of town relatives qualify as interstate gangland connections? Last time I checked, in the US, we’re innocent until proven guilty. That’s how it worked for the gang that wanted to blow up Albemarle High, right? Or does that standard only hold for white teenagers who organize with computers, and not black kids whose so-called gang affiliation is demonstrated by doodles in a notebook?
There are two types of gangs. There’s the “gang” that’s historically existed in Charlottesville, and the “gang” that defines most of ’em in the nation. They’re completely harmless groups of kids — if anything, they’re helpful to the kids. And then there’s the Bloods and the Crips. There ain’t nobody who believes that these groups are harmless.
These violent gangs are often referred to as “syndicates” or as “organized crime” in the media in order to mark the distinction. Criminologists describe violent gangs — particularly prison-based violent gangs — as “Security Threat Groups” (or “STGs”), again in order to differentiate them from, say, Spanky of “Our Gang.”
Good point. It isn’t unprecendented for the police to inflate the importance of an arrest. The kids might just be wannabes, but the cops could overlook that fact and announce they captured real, bona fide Bloods.
After the Albemarle County police department’s apparently overblown reaction to the would-be school attackers, it does seem a bit tough to gauge these days.
Waldo, I understand the points you’re attempting to make.
However, when the city police give school principals lists of “gang terminology” to watch out for, it’s not because they think it’s a “Spanky and Our Gang” situation, but instead because they know it takes very little for a local gang to make national connections and become part of the larger syndicate.
And yeah I’m not so ungracious enough that I won’t acknowlege that local law enforcement’s judgements as of late make them suspect with regards to media announcements and crime.
Fact is most of the time it’s simply a case by case judgement call.
Yeah, but remember that the gang information that schools were told to look out for weren’t solely those of violent gangs. Sure, if there’s a kid with “18” tattooed over his eyebrow, that’s probably worth checking out. But having principals investigate kids for wearing a t-shirt with the name of their neighborhood on it? Fine, but only if they kick kids out for wearing “Farmington” t-shirts, too. That would be awesome.
Waldo wrote:
That’s a blatant mis-characterization of that other situation. Said pupil was asked to turn the shirt inside out because it contained known gang terminology (as provided by the police department- and yes we’ve already acknowleged their fallibility).
Waldo wrote:
As soon as Farmington becomes associated with criminal activity, I’m sure they will add it to the list. However school uniforms (my original position- supporting) would make that angle of the discussion irrelevant.
Bottom line Waldo is that I think you understand the points I’ve already made, just as I do yours.
In any event it’s a sad day when the only thing a kid has to be proud of is something as random as the neighborhood he lives in. There are so many more things (and accomplishments) in life that children should be encouraged to find pride in.
It sounds like you know something about this case that I don’t. It’s my recollection that the kid had a t-shirt promoting his band, and it contained a reference to his neighborhood, which was the trigger for him being told he couldn’t wear it. Was there more to it?
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. It’s certainly nothing new. I’m proud to be an American (most of the time). I’m proud to be a Virginian. I’m proud to be a Charlottesvillian. To be more specific, I’m proud to live in Stony Point, and I’m jealous that my wife has a Stony Point t-shirt and I don’t. (Designed by Fran Smith, at that.) When in lived in town, I was proud to live in North Downtown, and I’d have happily worn a t-shirt proclaiming that, had they existed.
That’s not sad — that’s normal. That’s humans. We’re tribal creatures.
Waldo you wrote:
The operative word in your mis-characterization is investigate. No one was investigated. The kid refused to turn is shirt inside out. His mom made a free speech case to the media about it.
And my point is- what if the name on the t-shirt was one associated with a national gang? Should he still be allowed to wear it? And considering the short distance it is from local neighborhood gang to national affiliation.. do we really have the time to make a distinction, especially when the local police already think the local version equates to criminal activity?
It’s certianly nothing new, and the Klan doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with their association either.
Yes we’re tribal creatures, but not all affiliations are productive or positive. Self esteem is a large part of the pride of affiliation, and children should be encouraged to find self esteem from within themselves, from their own accomplishments, as opposed to simply their group affiliation.
And yes Waldo, you’re Virginian and Charlottesvillian, and even Stony Pointian, and proud of it. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but I doubt the core of your self esteem comes from any of those affiliations.
I’d think it might come more from your accomplishments. Perhaps from your technological proficiency with the web, the educational experience you’ve gained, the two blogs you operate, or the fact that you’ve become somewhat of a pundit and local political figure.
But I don’t know you personally, so I could be wrong. Maybe being a Virginian, Charlottesvillian, or Stony Point resident, is the end all be all to your existance. If that’s so… well that’s pretty sad (but that’s just my opinion) but if that’s what floats your boat in the morning when you wake up… so be it. More power to you… until membership in any of those affiliations become a part of a criminal enterprise that might affect me. (and yes I’m using an extreme example to illustrate a point).
Anyway I think this concludes my contributions on this thread. I think you’re more concerned with being “right” than having a discussion, and that being the case it’s pointless for me to continue.
Could I be wrong about anything I’ve posted? Of course. It is after all only *my opinion*.
And the gang that represents South Downtown would have happily beat the snot out of you for wearing that shirt.
Trust me, there is a huge difference between Farmington and Glenmore kids wearing their stuff and what we are talking about. If you care about these kids, youll wake up and realize that this is a serious problem. Listen to the words of the music they listen to all day every day. I listen the same stuff these kids do and the pressure is enourmous to give up school and work the block, its all pimpin’ hoes and slangin’ rock, and guess who happens to be rolling into good ole C’ville to show ’em how its done, the Bloods and the Crips. For anyone who thinks this is joke or that kids in little ole’ Charlottesville won’t fall hook, line, and sinker for this nonsense, you had better guess again. The saddest part is that the kids are alright kids, my friend knows and works with one of the individuals arrested for the incident that sparked this conversation. He told me that the kid has a great sense of humor, is gental in conversation, but is seriously mislead when it comes to how things work in the world. Basically, the kid is in the world that stems from a culture that glamorizes the gang scene.
I think everybody’s in agreement on this. I’ve seen nobody claiming otherwise. My point is precisely the same as yours: there’s a huge difference between some kids hanging out together that are proud of their neighbood and the Bloods.
Its not about names or neighborhoods or tee-shirts, its about violent criminal organizations, people who engage in violent criminal activity. That is what we need to be concerned about. Maybe the persons charged in the recent beatings have ties with a national gang,maybe not. The important thing is that pay the penalty for their crimes, are taken out of circulation. Nip any organized gang problem here in the bud. For too long we have tolerated a hoodlum , thug element in this community.
I blame the “war on drugs.”
Amen nobrainer.
Conspiracy is a thought crime – it does not exist anywhere except in thought – and Gang Membership is a form of conspiracy. IFF (and that’s a big one) we actually have startup chapters of Crips and Bloods here – and I do not trust either the City or County Police as a source of information on this – then they are quite dangerous and can be prosecuted for their dangerous acts. I grew up in C’ville, just off Rose Hill Dr., near the “dividing line” between the Washington Park Neighborhood and Rugby Hills Neighborhood, and I can promise you that many ‘gang’ fights took place. If this really represents the entry of organized crime into Charlottesville, the answer most certainly is to take the money out of it – I suspect that the City and County Police are simply after the funding.
TrvlnMn,
I’m pretty sure I wrote the comments that you quoted in your first post here. I do agree that if you are talking about actual, national organized crime groups such as the Bloods or the Crips (yes, I realize that calling them ‘organized’ is a bit generous but whatever) then that is a different story altogether.
What I have a problem with is pointing to any group of black kids who identify with a particular neighborhood, calling them a ‘gang’ and treating them as criminals. It’s sort of akin to saying that ‘mafia crime families are white guys doing business with each together and wearing expensive suits, therefore any group of white guys in expensive suits doing business with each other are an organized crime syndicate.’
Once someone identifys himself specifically as a member of the Bloods or Crips through tattoos or other markings, it’s a whole different ballgame. Just like if someone announced he was a member of the Gambino crime family, we would expect the FBI to begin investigating that person and monitoring him even if he hadn’t been implicated in a specific crime yet. At that point it’s no longer reasonable to presume he’s just a white guy in a nice suit.
Bullshit!
I got jumped by eight or nine of the little crack-addicted bastards one night as I was walking to the Mall from Hinton Avenue. I lost my wallet (with a picture of my daughter in it) and got plenty of bruises and scrapes, even though I asked them nicely to stop kicking me while I was on the ground and going unconscious.
The animals who jumped me in a pack are not fit to live in a free society.
The last post confirms exactly what I have been saying about the longtime thug element here.
There is another issue I would like to address even though it may make be seem like evil incarnate in some “politically correct” circles. Where is the outrage in the community affected by these vicious beatings?I venture to say if it had been a white gang,say skinheads,who committed this crime, the outcries would be deafening. Leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would come to Charlottesville to denounce this “hate crime” and the atmosphere that fostered it. Yet what did happen was a crime of hate too. Where then is the rage? Where is the demand to hold the perpretrators accountable, that such acts will not be tolerated?
I might also point out that urban street gangs are hardly new. Its been an issue ever since at least the post-World War II era-i.c. “West Side Story.”
I agree with Hollow Boy and DUG1138. You can often distinguish the victims from the lucky ones. Those who have come face to face with gang violence are angry. Anger is the most common manifestation of fear. The ones who have led a sheltered life can’t understand the anger. How many times should an individual be violent before they can be labeled as violent? Let’s build more prisons to hold the gangs and then talk about the social/political environment that gives rise to the violence. Of course, a war on anything other than a foreign nation is a war on America.
While others of us who have been victims of gang violence in C’ville see the humanity in our attackers. While no doubt the circumstances of the attacks and the nature of the gangs vary, it’s hardly fair to make such sweeping generalizations, whether regarding gangs or victims of gang violence.
If you can’t make generalizations, you can’t have a conversation or scientific theory or coherence. Pick any word and it’s a generalization of meanings. If you focus on the humanity of our attackers, you embolden the attackers. This is another part of human nature some people don’t seem to get. Thanks, Waldo, for the forum.
Waldo wrote:
cvillenative wrote:
*sigh*
The generations that you have made in your post just now are not fair, given that one of the people engaged in this discussion (me) has been a victim of gang violence without feeling like we should lock up every group of black kids in town.
Clearer?
I don’t care what race a violent and stupid person is.
All healthy children are born with the same human potential.
The kids who attacked me are certainly to be pitied, for their lack of opportunity (and probable neglect/abuse in childhood).
However, the bottom line is, violent stupid people are dangerous and should be eliminated for the good of a civilized culture.
If eliminating the threat means educating and feeding, so be it.
I prefer to contemplate the utopian results of a program of forced sterilization for those not qualified to be parents, and the recycling of protein and salvageable organs from the bodies of violent offenders.
Waldo wrote:
So which type of gang member was it that attacked you? Was it the “Spanky and Our Gang” type gang member who just had the gall to try to express pride in themselves and their community, by engaging you in gang violence? Or was it a “criminal syndicate” type of gang violence? And at the end of the day does it really matter? Gang violence is just that.. violence.
The bloods and crips are very real here. My daughter works with C’ville’s “high-risk” teens and has been talking about gang activity in this area for over a year. She has had great frustration with what she perceived as a lack of action on everyone’s part in the dept. she works in. Without going into details, the recent arrests of gang members has threatened her well-being. Yes, in little ol’ C’ville you can be threatened by gangs. I personally don’t know what we can do about gang activity, but my hope is that we as a community don’t bury our heads in the sand and believe it’s not in OUR backyard.
I still find it hard to believe that people think this is something to take lightly. I am no conservative, but rather, I have seen first hand what some of these people are capable of and I was not a victim or an innocent bystander, if you know what I mean, and I see where many with conservative views are coming from. The gangs are here for money, they aren’t here so boods can fight crips in C’ville, they are here so the network of higher-ups can make more money in prostitution, drugs, and other illegal activities. I also know there are upper-class white men here in town that are supporting these very same activites – well, illegal gambling I know from sure, prostitution and drugs I don’ t know for a fact – so what is the difference? I am not saying there is one and I am not saying there isn’t one, I happen to think that thier issue is more with not paying taxes than putting drugs on the street where junkies not only assault you but these young gangbangers will clash over turf and occassionaly throw down on an inncoent person becasue they can or they need to in order to find their reputation. Also note, too many on this board are saying only blacks, you had better believe the Lation gang MS-13 is for real. Crips and bloods alike move aside for them! White kids bang too, head on down to Belmont on a Friday night this summer, for that matter, I have seen Greene County boys (a large group of blacksand whites clearly representing Greene Co.) SWARM on C’ville thugs. They made the city boys reconsider proir notions about good ole’ boys. Anyway, gang are here, and they will only get more organized as money from crack and heroin pours in. If you stop the money, they’ll keep pushing (the network) but will have a much harder time getting a foothold. Reppin’ the hood you’re from is never going to stop, but that’s not gang activity either. Lock ’em up for thier crimes though !
George Mason wrote:
I haven’t read any posts on this thread that have led me to believe the subject was being taken lightly.
Nah, it’s different, IMHO. In my case, it was a dozen neighborhood kids from Rose Hill, over a decade ago. Clearly (in retrospect) it was an initiation — you gotta walk up to some random people and hit ’em. Having spotted at least a couple of those kids around Rose Hill since, it’s clear to me that they’re your basic kids who did something stupid.
The difference is clear, at least to me. In the case of “Our Gang” here, the gang is not problematic, it’s that some kids got together and did something stupid and nasty. The primary purpose of such groups is social. In the case of criminal syndicates, the group itself that is inherently problematic, because it exists for the purpose of committing crimes. (Hence RICO laws.)
There’s no need to crack down on and bust up the sort of group that went after me — arresting the one kid being initiated would be enough to scare the hell out of the remaining kid. For bonus points, sending a community officer around to the other kids’ house would get ’em grounded.
If this had been the Bloods that had jumped me, I assure you I’d have made it my mission in life to see them shut down. But some neighborhood kids? I was angry, I was sad, but I also recognize them as fellow human beings with whom I can empathize. Not so much with MS-13.
Waldo,
I understand your point. And I do agree, there is a time and place for leniency, especially where children are involved. And I understand the distinctions you are making. Kid’s do stupid things, and sometimes the right thing to do is to give them a pass (I’d like to do that after they had the fear of god put into them and I was damn sure they understood what they did was stupid). Were I assaulted by gang kids (regardless of which stripe they were) I do not believe I would be able to be as generous as you have been. Perhaps that makes you a better man than I. So be it.
I got my ass kicked enough “for no good reason” (other than being different) when I was a kid. And that’s enough in one lifetime for me.
I should say that in my case, I didn’t believe then (and don’t believe now) that they should have gone unpunished. But that I would want the punishment to be for what it was—assault and battery—and not some trumped up charge based on terrorism or RICO statutes or something. I was angry then, and I can still summon some anger now, if I think about it long enough.
Not a free pass. Just some understanding.
And that’s probably where you and I differ. I believe you could’ve filed that charge and gotten justice with it, and without rico or any similar trumped up statutes. But from your posts I don’t think you do.
I think the rico statutes should be used when drug dealing and other profit making schemes are involved.
Still those issues are a far cry from what’s appropriate or not to wear in school. And in that case whether it’s a neighborhood gang, or national syndicate, wearing the colors in school, well I’m always going to be opposed to that.