Earlier this year, Forest Lakes Arby’s owner Tom Slonaker got awful upset when the county told him that he had way too many signs in front of his store. (See The Hook’s January 30th story for details.) In the months since, he’s somehow managed to make it an issue over the right to fly the American flag in front of his store, and Albemarle has been unsure of what to do about him. Now the county has invited nine local organizations (ranging from the Chamber of Commerce to the Piedmont Environmental Council) to form a committee to review the county’s sign ordinances. In specific, they’ll be looking at the ordinances that address neon signs, vehicles bearing advertising, ads in windows, and flags bearing advertisements and logos. They’ll meet four times, beginning at the end of this month, at the end of which they hope to have revised ordinances for public review. David Dadurka has the story in today’s Progress.
Sideblog
Police announced this afternoon that their investigation into what was initially believed to be a fatal fire on Rugby Avenue is now a homicide investigation. #
The Virginia Supreme Court has denied George Huguely’s appeal. His second-degree murder conviction will stand, WRIC reports. #
In a carefully worded story, and not citing specific sources, WTVR reports that forensic evidence belonging to Jesse Matthew Jr., the main suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham, matches forensic evidence collected during the investigation of Morgan Harrington’s 2009 murder. #
In the wake of Hannah Graham’s disappearance, and the evidence that came from private security footage, city officials are revisiting the question of installing security cameras on the downtown mall. #
Both Charlottesville Registrar Sheri Iachetta and former Electoral Board member Stephanie Commander have turned themselves in to the police on
four six and four felony counts of embezzlement, respectively. #Ten years ago, the National Institutes of Health budget doubled and schools like the University of Virginia built massive new research facilities. A decade later, those buildings remain largely underutilized. NPR visits UVA in this story on the effect of federal binge and spurge spending in the sciences. #
In 2012, Council approved a new student housing complex on West Main—now some council members are questioning whether what they were shown matches what was built. #
The Architectural Review Board has approved a bike-themed mural on West Market, below the McGuffey Art Center, although at least one member expressed concerns that it might look like the bicyclists were riding away from Charlottesville’s downtown. #
City Police Chief Tim Longo is meeting with city leaders to work on protocols regarding the use of military surplus police weapons in Charlottesville. #
A 100-year-old Colonnades resident received military honors for her service in the WWII Women’s Army Corps #
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Anybody wanting to see the current sign ordinance can download a 2.2MB RTF file from the county’s website. It’s section 4.15 that you’d want to read.
Just giving this a quick once-over, this seems to make it pretty plain that advertising vehicles are not permitted. The definitions section specifies that flags clearly count as signs.
I’ve read the word “sign” so many times now that it’s lost all meaning.
The city allows more signage than the county does. Yet the county (29 north) is horribly ugly and the city is beautiful in comparison. What does that tell you? Hmmmm…
Some of the rules are just absurd, for example, any sign that casts light directly or indirectly on a residential area is illegal. Well if you can SEE the sign then it must be casting light. Only invisible signs are allowed?
I think there must be something better to spend our money on. This is more proof that our local government has nothing of any importance to spend their time and your money on.
I suggest this guy erect a 50 foot tall pink and purple poka dotted hippopotomus on the roof of his business in protest. If they want the hippo gone, they gotta give the poor guy his signs back.
again this shows that the county wants all of the little businesses to go away. They have been a pain in the a$$ for the little man to grow. The man just wants to tell people that he is there. I remember the guy who was building the new Freestlye shop that is in the old Star Base Alpha place. I don’t recall the exact problem but the county approved his signs. Then renigg after he started construction or something saying the lights were too bright. I think the guy wouldn’t have gone in that spot if they said he couldn’t have done it in the first place. I could be wrong.
Frankly, I’m disappointed in the County’s handling of this whole thing. They allowed Slonaker to portray this entire situation as something that it isn’t and then completely rolled over.
The notion of regulating of signs in an urban or suburban area is nothing new and does not necessarily constitute an attack on free enterprise.
Charlottesville has traditionally balanced quality of life with economic development in a cautious and generally successful way. As the community grows outward into Albemarle County, the County government is going to be faced with the same kind of issues and decisions that fell largely in the City’s lap prior to the halt to annexation. The matter of signs is a good example of that. Albemarle has 2 general directions to take. They can either adopt the laissez faire approach that has given us the aesthetic horror of Northern Virginia and the DC suburbs or they can follow Charlottesville’s model in occasionally putting a foot down for quality of life.
One more sign in the Arby’s parking lot is not going to ruin the quality of life in Albemarle. Similarly, one more car wash during last year’s drought would not have drained the reservoir. But in both cases, government is obliged to recognize that individual drops in the bucket are what constitute an overflow.
The overall appearance of a community should reflect a consensus among the people as to what kind of place they’d like to live in and how it should look. Government should be the organized, empowered expression of that consensus. Reasonable sign ordinances ought to be one of those expressions.
I think you’re overstating the situation somewhat. The Forest Lakes Arby’s has a sign, just like probably every other Arby’s in the chain. It has the distinctive architecture, just like probably every other free-standing Arby’s inteh chain. The building stands alone on a major highway, with nothing nearby to distract from its aforementioned sign and architecture. Oh yeah – and don’t forget the van parked as lose to the road as possible – the one with the huge Arby’s logo on it.
If ANYBODY missed noticing that business, it sure as hell wasn’t because there weren’t enough Arby-centric signage features to attract their attention.
There must be a balance between commercial signage and aesthetic peace. The County’s ordinance, which seems to cover all the bases, tries to maintain that balance. The business owner knew (or should have known) about the relevant ordinances before setting up shop. Now isn’t the time to whine about it, and now DEFINITELY isn’t the time for the County to consider relaxing the regulations.
"The man just wants to tell people that he is there."
Come on–it’s an ARBY’S, it’s perfectly clear to anyone driving on 29 North that there is an Arby’s there. Shaped like an Arby’s, has signs that say "Arby’s" on top, etc.
The man doesn’t just want to tell people that he is there. He wants to be able to get more into people’s faces than he already is. That doesn’t necessarily make him a bad person, but it’s also not something that the county has to automatically let him do, on pain of being labeled "anti-business."
You guys are missing the whole point. It was a flag that was the size of a poster board. It was flown under the US flag. The problem isn’t with the owner of Arby the problem is with nick picky people like yourselves. The county wants to regelate every ascept of everything without taken a step back and saying "this is dumb what are we doing?"
I have talked with many businesses up and down 29. Why must be one be regelate differently depending on where you are at? Case in point, the ice cream shop in Seminole Commons was denied having a graphic of a ice cream cone and coffee mug. The county told him it was because it was a graphic and not a sign. Yet you drive down on 29 and you would clearly see a graphic of Radio Shack across the mall. Or you would see a matress king. What is the difference?
That’s the most despicable part of this whole story. This guy is trying to make a buck (nothing wrong with that) by trying to tie his advertsing banner to the American flag (plenty wrong with that).
Sorry, but we’re not all buying that sort of self-serving pseudo-patriotism that he’s selling. If he wants to make a case for eliminating zoning ordinances, bring it on. I just don’t like him using my country’s flag to sell his fast-food.
Yet you drive down on 29 and you would clearly see a graphic of Radio Shack across the mall. Or you would see a matress king. What is the difference?
I don’t know for sure, and I’m just guessing, but these are both most likely trademarked corporate names. Certainly, the “Radio Shack” graphic is nothing more than the words “Radio” and “Shack” in their corporate typeface.
Is the point you’re trying to make that there should be no limits on signage (which would be disasterous, IMHO), reasonable limits (which, IMHO, there already are), or limits that are applied judiciously (which is something that surely could be addressed)?
If the Arby’s flag exceeds the ordinance, it seems like an open and shut case. If it’s too high, it has to be lowered. If flags are prohibited, it has to come down – the fact that it was flown beneath the US flag is totall irrelevant. If it’s too large, it has to come down. I just don’t see how a fast food franchise owner expects special zoning dispensation.
In any case, there’s a higher authority at play here. The Federal Flag Code – Public Law 94-344, a Joint Resolution of Congress. Section 4(i) states “The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.”
It was a flag that was the size of a poster board. It was flown under the US flag.
Sure, that flag was the size of a poster board. But there’s also the rest of his signs — in the windows, up in the air on a column, on the roof, on his van, on the street, etc. Surely you’ll agree that there’s a reasonable limit to the total number of and square footage of signage. Ought he be able to have 100 poster board-sized “Arby’s” signs? Of course not — I’m sure that we can agree on that. The question here is where the line is.
Signage is an arms race. The purpose of signs is to get noticed. This guy wants more signs so that he’ll be noticed more than the other shops around him. So he gets 2x more square footage of signs than the other places. The other places’ business starts to drop. So what do they do? They put up 3x more signs. And Arby’s doubles their signage. And so on.
When does it end? I can tell you when it ends: it ends when we decide that it ends. And, by the looks of 29 north, we’re way too permissive right now. If this Arby’s guy thinks that the county is too restrictive, he can go piss up a rope.
It’s the let everything hang out and freedom means I can do anything, anywhere, anytime I want crowd against those that understand freedom is not only a right, but a privilege to be respected by both those that use it at will and those that must live with others’ freedom.
Waldo rightly describes this signage situation as an “arms race”. When one tours other parts of the U.S., one can observe many-many areas that have done little to control the proliferation of these commercial weapons. The sight is disheartening.
This is the same debate, at its core, that we are having on so many subjects posted on cvillenews.com. It’s the same fundamental dispute about allowing every one to operate hulking SUVs (the bigger, the ‘badder’, the better). Or should frat houses be allowed to conduct parties the way they’d like. It’s even the same debate as determining our involvement concerning allowing a Saddam Hussein or a Kim Jong-il to be FREE to obtain, develop any weapon of their own choosing. [I find it curious though, that much of the crowd that so often vehemently defends the “everything goes” liberties in the U.S. are so gung-ho against foreigners’ freedoms]
"That’s the most despicable part of this whole story. This guy is trying to make a buck (nothing wrong with that) by trying to tie his advertsing banner to the American flag (plenty wrong with that). "
LOL, no this guy is again is putting his flag that is the size of a poster board in the front of his place. One person complained! One person complained! That voice made the county get all up and arms about this. Nobody cared before. I am glad he is standing up to them.
"Sorry, but we’re not all buying that sort of self-serving pseudo-patriotism that he’s selling. If he wants to make a case for eliminating zoning ordinances, bring it on. I just don’t like him using my country’s flag to sell his fast-food."
Let me guess, you will NEVER eat at a Arby’s again. People in the county and everywhere are so anal.
Actually, after eating there twice in the last several years when I found the chicken to be undercooked (twice, ditto), I wouldn’t go there anymore if I were you.
So I believe the only way to solve this problem is to stick your heads into the sand. No seriously, for me, the ulimate person who decides whose business suceeds or fail is the consumer. If you don’t like the signage, then don’t eat there. However don’t complain that 50 other people who don’t care either way does eat there.
"If this Arby’s guy thinks that the county is too restrictive, he can go piss up a rope."
Wow, strong statement! How does a flag on a poll effect you personally? How does that everywhere who is againist the signage? Do you drive down on 29 and have a nervous breakdown because this guy has signs. I thought half these people in here only shop downtown mall so why in the world do they care about a sign in Albemarle county in the first place.
i like the beef and chedder myself.
Harry wrote:
That’s the most despicable part of this whole story. This guy is trying to make a buck (nothing wrong with that) by trying to tie his advertsing banner to the American flag (plenty wrong with that).
IamDaMan wrote:
LOL, no this guy is again is putting his flag that is the size of a poster board in the front of his place. One person complained! One person complained! That voice made the county get all up and arms about this. Nobody cared before. I am glad he is standing up to them.
You’ve completely ignored Harry’s point. This guy is using the American flag as a shield for his advertising. You’ve surely witnessed his new broadcast advertising for his business: it’s all about how he’s a proud, brave, flag-waving American, with the implication that anybody who would ever oppose his signage is anti-American. This has been his schtick for months. It’s pathetic, how he wraps himself up in the American flag to hock second-rate sandwiches.
"I don’t know for sure, and I’m just guessing, but these are both most likely trademarked corporate names. Certainly, the "Radio Shack" graphic is nothing more than the words "Radio" and "Shack" in their corporate typeface. "
I am talking about the graphic with the "R" in it. The ice cream shop couldn’t use a graphic with a ice cream in it. I think someone else has a graphic on 29. I can’t remember.
LOL, actually the more free press he is getting the better he is off. Maybe the more complaining and uproaring you people are doing is helping this guy. If no one give a rat a$$ about the flag then I am sure he wouldn’t be a feature story in every paper or news outfit. The fact you people are making it a big deal is helping his cause.
If I ever eat at Arby’s, it’ll be the first time. Not interested before the signs and not interested after the signs. I prefer to eat at locally-owned, non-franchised restaurants.
Thank you for your interest.
I think the biggest reason why this area has so many anti-this or anti-that is because there is a lot of anal people in these parts. The biggest determining factor if a business does well or not should be the all mighty dollar. It shouldn’t be the county or people who don’t even come out these parts. Again, if you don’t like how someone does something then don’t go there. If someone has a flag of their business with the US flag, who freakin cares? No one forces you to eat there.
you really think hordes of sympathetic people are flocking to his Arby’s to eat something with Horsey Sauce on it just to support his cause? i think that’s not likely. I do think he’s getting sympathy with his "help me, I’m being oppressed by the county" line, but I don’t think it’s manifesting in greater sales of Beef ‘N Cheddars.
Here’s a picture of the van in question, courtesy of the Cavalier Daily.
Maybe the more complaining and uproaring you people are doing is helping this guy. If no one give a rat a$$ about the flag then I am sure he wouldn’t be a feature story in every paper or news outfit. The fact you people are making it a big deal is helping his cause.
“You people?” This is the first time that this story has appeared on this site.
So, by repeated omission, do you agree that this man has coopted the American flag for the purpose of promoting his own self-interests?
So I believe the only way to solve this problem is to stick your heads into the sand. No seriously, for me, the ulimate person who decides whose business suceeds or fail is the consumer. If you don’t like the signage, then don’t eat there. However don’t complain that 50 other people who don’t care either way does eat there.
There’s so much wrong here that it’s hard to know where to start.
First, your assertion that if I don’t like it, I shouldn’t eat there. Wrong. If I don’t like his signs, I should fight them. Because regardless of whether or not I eat at Arby’s, I have to look at the signs. Imagine if I constructed a billboard on 29 with a huge, explicit picture of two men having sex. Hey, if you don’t like it, don’t give me money, right? Wrong. We don’t allow that because we have set certain standards as to what we do and do not thing is visually acceptable in the public realm.
Second, you’ve completely failed to acknowledge the arms-race affect of this. If Arby’s becomes bigger and brighter to be noticed, then all businesses around Arby’s will be forced to do the same. People aren’t going to eat more meals if they notice Arby’s more. They’re simply going to eat there instead of someplace else. Those other places are going to, in turn, increase the size and brightness of their signs. And so on. Failing to patronize any one of those businesses won’t solve the problem, because I still have to look at them.
Thirdly, your totally invented assertion that anybody is complaining that people are eating at Arby’s. I have never, ever seen anybody — here or anywhere else — discredit people for patronizing this man’s business. If you’re going to engage in basic rhetoric, it’s best to actually stick to the facts, rather than invent new ones.
I kind of agree with you in an odd way. I think that is a good way to look at entire communities.
We Charlottesville/Albemarle folks have a particular way that we like things to look. If you don’t like cooperating with that and don’t want to be a part of it, then don’t move here and definitely don’t open an Arby’s here. There are plenty of places all over the country where you can build whatever ugly signs you want.
There should be some places in America where quality of life and the way that things look are considered important. Nowadays there are are precious few left. This is one of them.
I’m in favor of diversity. All towns in America do not have to look exactly the same with identical strip malls, gas stations, Walmarts and Arbys’. People in Salt Lake City should be able to run an obnoxiously puritanical government and if I were to show up there one day I wouldn’t try to open a casino next to the temple. Within the boundaries set by the Constitution, they deserve a place where they can set standards unique to their identity and values. Ditto for us.
As far as the economics are concerned, it works just fine. I keep hearing pro-sprawl advocates predicting economic doom for Charlottesville/Albemarle if we don’t embrace every business that shows up jingling the keys to a bulldozer. We have had a cautious attitude towards growth with a good eye for aethetics here for over a century and we have done just fine. That model would not work on a State-wide or Federal scale, but I’m pleased with the results here.
"First, your assertion that if I don’t like it, I shouldn’t eat there. Wrong. If I don’t like his signs, I should fight them. Because regardless of whether or not I eat at Arby’s, I have to look at the signs. Imagine if I constructed a billboard on 29 with a huge, explicit picture of two men having sex. Hey, if you don’t like it, don’t give me money, right? Wrong. We don’t allow that because we have set certain standards as to what we do and do not thing is visually acceptable in the public realm."
LOL, that statement really made me laugh after reading it. So basically a flag with a Arby’s logo should be in the same contents as two naked men doing the whoopie. Do you ever read your replies out load? There is a big difference between the two. Okay if you want to talk about sign contents there here are my thoughts about it. During the war, I noticed people putting up "Say No to War" signs. I personally supported our President’s decision. Did that make me shudder that people might have different opinions about it. NO! I just kept on driving. Who cares? Your example is on two different opposite sides on the spectrum.
"Second, you’ve completely failed to acknowledge the arms-race affect of this. If Arby’s becomes bigger and brighter to be noticed, then all businesses around Arby’s will be forced to do the same. People aren’t going to eat more meals if they notice Arby’s more. They’re simply going to eat there instead of someplace else. Those other places are going to, in turn, increase the size and brightness of their signs. And so on. Failing to patronize any one of those businesses won’t solve the problem, because I still have to look at them.
"
What arms race? Oh no the light is so bright. I will be blinded by the light. The problem I am seeing is that you are making a fess about something that isn’t pleasing to you. Since this is hurting your eyes, you don’t take in account that somebody well just doesn’t care how big a sign is or how bright it is. If you don’t like looking at a sign, then take your head and turn it the other way. That is what I do when I see the Lewis and Clark building when I drive by it. That thing is ugly. Yet, you don’t see me fighting to have it tear down because it is hurting my eyes.
"Thirdly, your totally invented assertion that anybody is complaining that people are eating at Arby’s. I have never, ever seen anybody — here or anywhere else — discredit people for patronizing this man’s business. If you’re going to engage in basic rhetoric, it’s best to actually stick to the facts, rather than invent new ones."
Sorry chief you lost me on that one :P.
Funny you should ask me that. I have heard that his business actually grew because there is support for his cause.
"You people" as refer to CVille, Hook, Daily Progress, and NBC 29. The owner of Arby’s had to spend ZERO dollars for the press he is getting. Well maybe he had to spend in fines but that is beside the point.
"We Charlottesville/Albemarle folks have a particular way that we like things to look. If you don’t like cooperating with that and don’t want to be a part of it, then don’t move here and definitely don’t open an Arby’s here. There are plenty of places all over the country where you can build whatever ugly signs you want."
All I am saying, for every one person who doesn’t want change there might be a person who embraces it. Simple fact. I embrace change. I don’t hide under the covers if someone wanted to open a Arby’s. Heck, I am still waiting for a Olive Garden.
As for diversity, I agree in some odd way too. Sometimes I sat down and think that Charlottesville is home to not one, not two, but three Presidents. Can any other city beat that. That is way the downtown should never be paved. Yet, I do believe 29 is growing outward.
IamDaMan, what does your ideal world look like? Is it a place of McDonald’s, Walmart’s, and Olive Garden’s, all easily accessible by car on an congested highway where you pass by not trees by Arby’s flags flown up a pole? The quest for preserving the almighty dollar is kinda of a debased place to live, don’tchathink?
Is Tom Slonaker our Larry Flint?
Well I could go on and on and on about the flag and all the patriots who are not interested enough to properly display their flags (let`s start with taking them down each evening – but that`s too much trouble).
Respect for the flag and knowledge of proper display seems to vary with each generation but then the issue at hand is the "sign thing".
The issue with me is how much or how little it takes to make something happen around the City and County. Case in point all the ill bred brats(at least one are two must be) cursing mall pedestrians. Don`t tell me no one complained before and no action- but when a businessman complained it became a big issue and police presence was increased immediately.
The ordinary citizen has no chance alone but must "rally the troops" to get something done whereas a guy in business has only to speak.
Same old crap.
no.
What are you? Some kind of ***** french guy or something?
"All towns in America do not have to look exactly the same with identical strip malls, gas stations, Walmarts and Arbys’"
Actually, they all DO have to look that way. Haven’t you looked at 29n lately? Not only is it JUST as ugly as anything up north, but we have no bypass so you’re FORCED to spend a good 20 minutes sitting at stoplights. We’re the laughing stock of all of VA.
I don’t like it any more than you do, but thats the way things are. But I know better than to think that taxing ourselves to spend money to proclaim that we’re better than all that and want everything to be pretty and jeffersonian while still being as ugly as anywhere else is a WASTE.
"We Charlottesville/Albemarle folks have a particular way that we like things to look. If you don’t like cooperating with that and don’t want to be a part of it, then don’t move here and definitely don’t open an Arby’s here."
Whoah there! Calm down. Why don’t you just line up all the people who disagree with you and shoot them in the head. Put them in concentration camps perhaps? Force them to make little rotunda models to sell to tourists? You have no more right to be here than the people who disagree with you do. Once they move here, they have just as much say in things as you do. Sooner or later you’ll be in the minority and not the majority, and you’ll be the one saying "hey, maybe things shouldn’t be run this way" and some white trash idiots will be telling you not to move here if you don’t like the way "we" do things ’round here.
When they came for the nazis, I said nothing, because I was not a nazi…
Actually, although Lars no doubt has a completely different set of values than myself, I pretty much agree with his main [real] point:
You have no more right to be here than the people who disagree with you do. Once they move here, they have just as much say in things as you do. Sooner or later you’ll be in the minority and not the majority
The core problem is the majority of Americans sense of ethics, morality, aesthetics and valuation. Even though Charlottesville is still somewhat of a pocket of resistance, like Waldo and Jack are fairly courageously defending, they and their kind are quickly destined to succumb to a majority whose values have, let’s just say, ‘evolved’ to other standards, like, uh, like, whatever dude! Super-size dat wyle yor at it, k, fool?
I for one accept the coming Orewllian nightmare.
Orwellian even!
Why’s that Lars? It sounds as though you’ve got nothing to lose.
There are theories floating around out there that war is ultimately a precursor to creative processes: destroy to better rebuild something new.
In my mind, there are 2 primary problems with this. First, a whole bunch of not-so-bad folks will get plowed over. Second, inevitably, the same faulty system is recreated and lasts until the next decay and implosion.
But wait! There’s more! What happens to you, Lars? Do you have enough supplies up there on the Humpbacks? Don’t you know gazes rise?
I die and rot. Just like everything else.
What is this country’s fascination with immortality?
That would be a fascination with *youth*, not immortality. Although the Super Rich may qualify for your assertion…