Indie writes: The University of Virginia has an ambitious plan to build up its campus over the next few years. Included in its expansive plan is a goal to boost undergraduate enrollment by 400-500, possibly 1,100. See the full story in The Daily Progress.
They estimate that $1B will be spent during this expansion over the next few years, creating 1,400 jobs. They intend to physically expand UVa, heading to 9th and 10th Street and across JPA.
103 thoughts on “Big Construction Plans for UVa”
I am ready to protest the growth in UVa is anyone with me. I mean there is going to be MORE TRAFFICS and we will turn into Northern Va if we allow UVa to go along with this project.
I got my protesting boots do you?
I can already hear the groans of the anti-growth crowd, but as a person between jobs (a fancy way of saying that I’m seeking employment) I find this to be encouraging news. Expansion of the University is most definitely a good thing, whereas another McDonald’s or something like it is debatable.
I do not look forward to possibly 1,100 bratty new transient students trashing up the city and bringing daddy’s car with them to campus.
Sure, more jobs are good, but doesn’t the Charlottesville area already have the lowest-jobless rate in the state?
You have to weigh the pros and cons to all this new growth. Yes, new growth at the University is better than a McDonalds. But I would guess at least half of the new jobs generated by this expansion will be low wage, and if that’s what you are looking for, they just built a new WalMart facility up in Zion Cross Roads.
I’ll tell you what: I prefer UVA to be doing the expansion than the shopping district (which WILL expand anyway)
Look, growth *is going* to happen with any attractive place. It’s a lost battle to oppose it. But, what is a good way of using those energies lost in denying it, is to control it in a positive way.
I think everyone would do well to play with SimCity for a while, bc it demonstrates there is a right way and a wrong way of administering urbanism.
And yeah, Zion Cross Roads is the perfect example of how NOT to do it.
I think people either underestimate or overestimate the power of city government. I also think that all too often, even government officials don’t understand their true task.
Growth is primarily borne from 2 factors: demographics and economic activity. Thereís absolutely no stopping either (unless you want to move to China where they need to contain demographics for their own survival). Charlottesville has been doing its absolute max to stop uncontrolled growth and they should be commended for that.
My problem with them (city government), is that they have limited their intellectual reach because they donít dare go for the truly original solutions (although that’s why I think they’re sending folks to European places to check them out). I know these represent a huge risk, but without them, I guarantee this area will look like much of Richmond (Short Pump for instance) in 20 years.
There are many that think thatís great, so then they can drive their hulking wasteful SUV to Best Buy and get that big screen HDTV anytime they want. There are those that say people who donít like it here the way it is can just move elsewhere (Iím a prime example who cannot move at this time for personal reasons).
The truth and the solutions lie in between: I think if thereís one place of the southeastern coast that has a chance, itís Cville bc itís already better than the rest (too small for my taste though). The trick is to nurture positive growth. Keeping on denying spots for big box stores will not last forever, but fostering original grand plans can work.
‘My problem with them (city government), is that they have limited their intellectual reach because they donít dare go for the truly original solutions (although that’s why I think they’re sending folks to European places to check them out). I know these represent a huge risk, but without them, I guarantee this area will look like much of Richmond (Short Pump for instance) in 20 years.
Yeah the city did a great job of stopping Best Buy of setting up shop in the WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION in Charlottesville. That is going to be a NIGHTMARE. You have one turning lane onto 250. When BB is ready, that turning lane will also be the same turning for BB.
YEAH GOOD ONE CITY GOVT!
see you can’t pick and choose. You have to either be for or againist growth. That includes UVa. So I am going to protest them today.
BTW, why in the world do we need a new arena. I mean UVa should be honor to be playing at U-Hall. I mean granted we are the laughing stock of the ACC but with a new arena means more traffic. And with more traffic, we will turn into Northern Va. I can’t have that.
If I’ve got the new BestBuy location correctly, it’s at the intersection of 29N and 250 where Aunt Sarah is? Well, this proves my point. The reasoning I think the city falls into is that they’ll allow anything in *already* developed places, but restrict it in non-developed locations. Thatís just a default stance and certainly not visionary.
You’re joking, right? UVa’s planned growth, though perhaps wrong-headed on some other accounts, doesn’t seem to be taking us in the direction of sprawl a.k.a. Northern Virginia. Most of the projects are slated for spots already on grounds–like knocking down old-New Cabell Hall to build new-New Cabell Hall. It’s not like it’s going to expand the suburban ring.
Are you trolling?
LOL, do you allow UVa to fog your eyes. UVa wants to grow to get more students. And with more students will be more traffic. And with more traffic we will turn into a Northern VA. We cannot allow UVa to go ahead with any grow. They must be stop.
<i>see you can’t pick and choose. You have to either be for or againist growth.</i>
He’s right, Cecil. They must be stop. We cannot allow them any grow. Duh, what were we think?
Don`t need to play SimCity – We are a living Sim City; however, the County/City politicians are digging the game with, in many instances, unbridled enthusiasm for pointless projects and initiatives.
Don`t ask me to name them – I am mind boggled from reading and living them for Lo, these many years – of course I still love my Albemarle – even a prince has warts – (read or princess before I am clobbered by a feminist or something).
I do fervently hope for a curb on student automobiles (Look out Supreme Court) and am hopeful for an on- grounds- dorms increase but then the apartment/real estate folks will have a hissy fit – We have a jewel of an area here but there too many facets on this diamond to efficiently manage and please everyone. We must try, but it is hard to make money, provide jobs, tout us as an ideal retirement, business, tourist community,and plan for our kids never to leave here, and still keep our little Eden pure.
Wow, so if we allow UVa to expand we would lose the battle of growth. Could you image if we don’t. It would have a ripple effect on the area. If UVa grows, then we must build more roads. With more people, we must build more shopping centers for UVa. Barracks Road is big but if we get more students, they will not fit in there.
I say we must put a stop to this. I bet UVa give the anti-growth money so they will not protest. I get it now. If you don’t contribute to Piedmont Environmental Coucil, they you are f*cked. I bet UVa give them a butt load of money.
Get over yourself, will you? If you didnt want to deal with students, why did you move to a college town? You and I both know that this is farmland if it wasn’t for UVA, and if you have a job in central Virginia you should understand that it exists solely because of the University. All I hear these townies do is whine whine whine about students–why don’t you ever do something about it, like leave if you’re unhappy?
The University is going to expand, period. That’s what universities do–they seek to get more money to build more buildings and have better facilities for students. It’s just the facts of life.
My job has never depended on the university.
I am not a townie.
I was here before the Mall.
Now that is said my post concerned only exercising a semblance of control, as is exercised in many, many college towns, over university growth, not in numbers, but in encroachment .
There may be something to be said as regards size versus effectiveness.
It is also a fact of life when control is not exercised growth can get out of hand. As in I like one kid, let`s have fifteen.
I am led to believe your livelihood depends on the university. Obviously I unintentionally struck a nerve by urging moderation and maintenance of a beautiful area (even now).
Do you work in Charlottesville? Then your job depends on the University, for if the University did not exist, neither would Charlottesville. There’s no reason to believe that this area would have become a city for any reason other than the University’s presence since 1819.
If you live in a college town, how are you not a townie? Isn’t that the definition?
There’s a difference between wanting to keep an area beautiful and habitable, and being anti-growth on all fronts. My experience with townies is that they are so paranoid about sprawl that they oppose any new projects. And that’s just ridiculous. UVA needs to build to stay competitive, and that’s just the way it’s going to be.
I don’t like the traffic up 29 any more than anyone, but that’s due to poor planning, not growth. The traffic in half of NoVa is better than that in Charlottesville, because it’s planned better.
We don’t want to be a Northern Va. I want to see mountains not frat houses when I am driving. I came here because this area knows how to deal with it. People like the Piedmont Env Council fight for me. I applaud them striking any ideas for growth. If you don’t like it, then you can go to Va Tech.
"My experience with townies is that they are so paranoid about sprawl that they oppose any new projects."
Your experience is limited, then. There are PLENTY of "townies" who do want growth in the form of a new Target, a new Hollymead Town Center, new developments, etc. Plenty. If there weren’t townies who wanted these things, there wouldn’t be plans afoot to supply them all.
There are also, of course, locals or townies who are in favor of smart- or slow-growth, as well as some (relatively few) who are truly no-growth.
But to suggest that all or even most locals are anti-growth in the simplistic way that you describe is really off-base. Pro-smart-growthers WISH it were true.
"Do you work in Charlottesville? Then your job depends on the University, for if the University did not exist, neither would Charlottesville. There’s no reason to believe that this area would have become a city for any reason other than the University’s presence since 1819."
That’s a logical fallacy, of course. Your reasoning suggests that if the university had never been built here, then there would be no town here, because there’s no reason the area would have become a city. That’s simply unknowable–you don’t and can’t know that a city would not have sprung up in, say, 1822 on some other impetus. Maybe some entrepreneur would have started up some river-based enterprise. Maybe someone would have just started a town–it happened throughout the early 1800s. But my point is that there’s no way to know what might have happened if TJ had taken his academical village elsewhere. So you can’t say that there would be no town here were it not for the university.
There’s no reason to believe that this area would have become a city for any reason other than the University’s presence since 1819.
That’s not true. You should brush up on your Charlottesville history.
Charlottesville was selected as the new county seat after Albemarle was reduced to one quarter of its previous size in the early 1760s, making the former location of Scottsville impractical, due to its location at the far southern tip of the newly-small Albemarle. It was chosen because it had a plateau of relatively flat land that was unoccupied, and because of its location more or less in the center of the country. The land was divided into lots along the same grid system that we use now (although some street names were different), and they sold briskly. The town flourished in the early 1800s, and grew rapidly from Court Square along Main Street. UVa, you might recall, was deliberately built away from Charlottesville — or so it was in the scale of the times.
But, hey, thanks for playing.
‘Your experience is limited, then. There are PLENTY of "townies" who do want growth in the form of a new Target, a new Hollymead Town Center, new developments, etc. Plenty. If there weren’t townies who wanted these things, there wouldn’t be plans afoot to supply them all. ‘
Actually you are wrong about that statement. There is a MINORITY of people who want that and other developments. The developers will contune to cut down trees until we reach Fredicksburg. We must stop it at every level which includes UVa. I moved here last year because this place was voted one of the nicest places to live. So I want to stay that way. We don’t want to turn into a pavement city. We must stop people, development and other avenues wanting to live here and grow. UVa, Charlottesville, and Albemarle must work together to ensure our way of living.
Do you honestly believe that Charlottesville would be any different than an Orange or a Madison or a Crozet if it weren’t for the University? And there’s tons of industry and jobs in those places…oh wait.
If you think that Charlottesville’s development is independent of University involvement and expansion, you’re taking crazy pills.
Do you honestly believe that Charlottesville would be any different than an Orange or a Madison or a Crozet if it weren’t for the University? And there’s tons of industry and jobs in those places…oh wait.
I didn’t say that. I was responding only to your assertion that Charlottesville was created because UVa was here. The opposite of that is true.
So what’s so wrong with Orange and Madison and Crozet? Just because they don’t have a bunch of pompous-ass students to pump their trust fund dollars into the economy doesn’t mean they aren’t pleasant places to live. So what if they don’t have major university to employ its residents, but I think that if they didn’t like their quality of life in Orange then they would move to good ol’ Charlottesville, the nicest place to live in the world, no?
I’m all for a dynamic places to live, but I don’t see what’s so wrong with the "status quo" as far as the University is concerned. They aren’t being accountable for the number of students they have now, as far as providing on campus living space. And an extra 1,100 students will overwhelm the local infrastructure, which I’m sure UVa doesn’t give a hoot about how it will impact the long-time residents here who have to deal with this added pollution, er, I mean, population. To me, the powers that be are running UVa as if it were a corporation, and they are just turning the whole place into a theme park, a la "Thomas Jefferson-land." Aside from my own sarcasm, the city has the lowest jobless rate in the state, and frankly, we don’t need the jobs. Southwest Virginia needs them.
And I grew up here so if you have a label for me, I’m ready.
I must disagree with on the economic side of things, too. (I will ignore your assumption that UVa’s status as a source of growth means that we must permit them to do as they like.) While there is no doubt that UVa is a major economic force in Charlottesville, they can certainly not claim credit for Charlottesville being the economic success that it is now.
For starters, Charlottesville is small. 40,000 souls. There are a half dozen cities in Virginia bigger than us, and none of them have UVa or even colleges, that I’m aware of. We are small enough so as to be easily sustainable with relatively little industry, but big enough that we would not be seriously injured by the loss of a Technicolor or a Frank Ix and Sons.
Secondly, Charlottesville can provide a lot of credit to two sources for its early economic success: the railroads and the avoidance of industry. The C&O ran a line through town in 1850 and, thanks to Claudius Crozet, it connected with the valley through Crozet. This made Charlottesville a huge spot for the temporary warehousing of goods, and also popular for manufacturing, because it was cheap and easy to ship goods to the expanding west through the Crozet tunnel. Better yet, the Southern Railroad went in just before the Civil War, running north/south, crossing where the tracks still cross today on West Main Street. This made Charlottesville important to both lines, and made the use of the town for the purpose of temporary warehousing even more popular. Passenger travel became more popular, too, and so Charlottesville became an obvious spot to spend a night when transferring from one rail line to the next. It is no understatement to say that Charlottesville’s positioning with regard to the rail network served as a major economic force for development of Charlottesville throughout the latter half of the 1800s. The second source of economic success is the city’s deliberate avoidance of polluting industry from the late 1800s through the early 1900s. Factories had proved to be a cash cow for many developed areas of the country — they employed dozens or hundreds, provided tremendous quantities of goods, and provided a good source of taxes. The problem was the pollution and the terrible working conditions. Charlottesville repeatedly rejected the advances of these industries, which ultimately led to Charlottesville being a far more white-collar town than any of the surrounding towns. One need look no further than Lynchburg to see what happened to towns that became dependent on these factories.
In short, no, UVa is neither the source of Charlottesville (as I wrote in another comment) nor of our economic success. We do have UVa to thank for many aspects of our economic success, but long before UVa became as large an employer as it is now, we had plenty going on for us, as we still do today.
unless you’ve lived here since 1819, you have no grounds to complain. yeah, growth is going to bring more traffic, and that sucks. but maybe thatwill encourage city council to start thinking about upgrading the infrastructure of our road systems, rather than finding new ways to gouge money out of us. that $2 a bag you’re going to be paying for trash come july 1 needs to be used for something, right? and that 30% hike in water/sewer bills ain’t gonna spend itself.
as for you, ShaftDu, maybe you should quit bitching about UVa and enroll there. your language/grammar skills could use some SERIOUS improvement. and take your protesting boots and shove them up your ass!
I would assert the following:
1. Charlottesville is the city that it is today in massive part because of the presence of U-Va. U-Va is neither solely responsible nor irrelevant. At this point, however, it is relatively unfair for people to complain about its presence (though complaints about particular behaviors may well be reasonable). Unless you disbelieve in the merit of Universities as an idea, they have to go somewhere.
2. The state university system as a whole is about to feel a huge pressure from the state to expand the number of undergraduate slots. In light of that expected expansion, 400-500, or even 1000, might not be that big of an increase.
3. U-Va tends to build in, rather than out, especially as compared other growth sources. U-Va also brings fewer cars per adult than the regular population (due to the limit on bringing cars). Finally, U-Va students are more likely to live in high-density housing, on or off grounds, than the regular population.
4. However, the growth of the student population, despite being unlikely to push out the borders of the town directly, may well lead to a secondary population growth and that may push out the town.
5. U-Va., Charlottesville, Virginia, and the United States are all faced with foreseeable population growth. To deny that is either to practice a selective elitism or unrealism. I think the proper aspect of planning would be to figure out how to best accomodate growth. As we known, Charlottesville has quite a reputation and people like ShaftDu will continue to move here.
"Get over yourself, will you? If you didnt want to deal with students, why did you move to a college town?"
Hey, dude. I didn’t "move" here. I grew up here.
"You and I both know that this is farmland if it wasn’t for UVA,"
And what’s so bad about farmland???
"The University is going to expand, period. That’s what universities do–they seek to get more money to build more buildings and have better facilities for students."
The facilities they have for their students are the best money can buy as they are. Have you ever been on grounds to see for yourself? Fundraising is a part of the UVa administration’s job to pay the bills, yes, but if you have read past media accounts of President Casteen’s job, he has turned into a glorified, full-time fundraiser. He isn’t keeping his eye on what’s happening in the student and academic community. Rather he is out making sure UVa can afford to buy a new stadium.
the city has the lowest jobless rate in the state
true the city might have the lowest rate but what are the numbers for Albemarle, Greene, Orange, Madison and Nelson. I mean don’t they count the jobless number with the people who actually claim the benefit. Maybe the jobless cannot live in Cville because the standard of living is too. Anyhoo, if anyone is not working they should live our town so we can keep the number low.
what the hell is STFU?
Are you on crack?
so lyle_lanley, what is up your butt?
I for one do not want growth. I believe there will be many cars on the road. I can’t have that. With UVa growing, there will be more students. With the new arena, they will have more things there. I moved to Charlottesville last year to avoid that. I moved here because I am from Northern Va and I am sick and tired of growth. Who made you god of Charlottesville? If you like growth then move the heck out.
In reference to point #2, why are they feeling this pressure to expand and who is applying this pressure? I assume you are talking about the state gov’t, and the lack of dollars they are sending Virginia’s colleges and universities at the present time.
In reference to point #3, yes, there is a limit on the number of cars students can bring in, if you mean not more than two. The rules are pretty lax in that area. First year students can bring a car after their first semester, when other universities say their students shouldn’t have a car their entire first year. UVa should adopt that policy. And students are allowed to register more than one vehicle.
City Council was dealing with too many UVa-related (ie. UVa employees or student) cars in residential neighborhoods and the permiting process a while ago, so it is a big issue here. And as far as the high-density housing of students in-town, that’s great but there has been an on-going and worthwhile discussion of rental housing versus home ownership in the UVa area, with the transient students who live in rentals being a detriment to the city (parking issue, trash, loud parties, transiency, etc.).
Overall, I agree that UVa is a big bonus to the community, but to just let them steamroll over the city with their expansive plans is not good for anybody. I want the University to succeed but you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
I don’t understand your argument here.
The pressure, if I understand correctly, comes from the explosion in population all over the state. It is becoming nearly impossible for Northern Virginia kids to get into U-Va and becoming fairly difficult for them to get into even VT or JMU. So, there is pressure, mostly from NOVA, through Richmond, to either expand quickly or to kick out all of the out-of-staters. Since there really aren’t all that many spots going to out-of-staters, the schools will undoubtedly feel forced to expand.
I think that your other comments are spot on. The key is not forbidding an increase in slots. As I mentioned above, that is a battle most likely lost. The key is working with U-Va (or U-Va working with the city) to maintain the quality of life despite the additional students. Limiting the number of cars is one idea (though I doubt many students register more than one car). Restricting cars until second year is another. Working on the on-grounds, off-grounds housing is yet another.
I think that the key is, as you seem to be saying and I think Sympatico suggests, not to issue a likely-ignored rejection of the inevitable, but rather to take a step back and look at new ways of planning the enterprise. Use some of the smarts in this town to figure out how to make this work, not to just ***** and complain as someone else does it their way.
If you dis-like growth, why in the heck did you move to an area so clearly poised for a big period of growth?
"Do you work in Charlottesville? Then your job depends on the University, for if the University did not exist, neither would Charlottesville. There’s no reason to believe that this area would have become a city for any reason other than the University’s presence since 1819. "
This is the assertion that I made. If you must take it so literally…
A "City" is defined merely by its legal incorporation as an entity. I could own a bunch of grass with nothing on it, and make it a city through my state legislature. That’s not the point–size is. I stated that Charlottesville would not have become a "city", and perhaps I was not specific enough.
It would not be urban, at all, if not for the sustained growth and development (along with employment) that the University brought for nearly 200 years. Yes, Charlottesville was founded before Jefferson broke ground on his University, but my assertion was simply that Charlottesville would be nothing like it is today without the University. You don’t see "orangenews.com", do you?
Further, the University was not "created" because of UVA (I assume that when you say the opposite is true, you mean the inverse, since there’s no point in phrasing it that way otherwise…) Perhaps the spot was chosen because there were already some roads through the area, but indeed Jefferson would have built the University somewhere else in Virginia had Charlottesville not existed at all.
Anyway, this is pretty stupid.
Wah, Wah, Wah, the students are pompous. Give me a break…if you would get upset with me stereotyping townies as hillbillies, you can’t stereotype students as rich kids from NoVa or the Northeast. I’d love to see you do a study to prove just how many students have trust funds…
My point is this: if Orange and Madison and Crozet are so good, why don’t you move there? Plenty of people think those places are great–and they live there, as they should. If what’s going on in Charlottesville is so egregious that you have to complain all the time, why not move? It would certainly make you happier than bitching on message boards about sprawl and growth all day.
One thing about those other places as opposed to Charlottesville (which is a COLLEGE town)–you don’t get hotbeds of liberalism. What exactly is wrong with the people in charge of an organization running it like a corporation? Are you a socialist?
Clearly, expanding enrollment beyond capacity is a stupid thing to do. But that has nothing to do with expanding new building projects, and making the University’s facilities better.
Fine, fine, I can’t ask why you moved here if you didn’t. Fair enough.
Farmland’s fine, if that’s what you want in your life. It’s abundantly clear that this area is not going to return to being farmland, so if that’s what you want to live on, you have to move.
It is absolute crap that the facilities here are the best money can buy. Have you been to any of the schools in the top 25? Most of them have far superior classroom and other academic facilities than UVA. Our funding per student has been cut dramatically, crippling the University’s ability to get more nationwide attention. Am I suggesting that we become an Ivy League-type school, begging for money at every turn? Of course not. But the fact remains that additional projects can and will help the University in dozens of ways.
Just wait until 20 years from now when the University has a big gate on 29 where the Cav Inn and Chevron used to be, and you’ll see why the administration is focused on making it a REAL campus rather than just some buildings with a road through it.
UVa is already the #2 (formerly #1) public education institution in the U.S. How much more nationwide attention does it need? I definitely have been on grounds and have seen many of their facilities and they are more than adequate. If they weren’t, UVa would not have been distinguished with a top #2 ranking.
Ans no way am I saying that we need to "return" Charlottesville to farmland. But the growth in the student population will mean growth in faculty and staff and other workers at UVa, and they aren’t all gonna want to live in the city. They’ll want a nice little house in the country. So they buy up rural space and put some crappy house on it. And what will they need once they move to Fluvanna and Albemarle and other surrounding counties? Well they’ll need services. They’ll need a Food Lion, a video store, drug store, gas station, and fast food joint. If you know anything about Fluvanna as a bedroom community, you would know they are being affected greatly by C-ville’s growth. You should visit Fluvanna’s Lake Monticello, an area that is absorbing a lot of the population growth, mainly from those who work in Charlottesville. They’ve got all of that crap, Food Lion, paved over forestland, etc. It looks horrendous.
And you use the word "gate" and that is an appropriate term to apply to UVa. Someone said earlier that they are interested in becoming a "gated community" and I’d say that was the case if I was paranoid enough.
Point taken. I think that many of the students are spoiled, little rich kids who drive their Daddy’s cars and have trust funds. I have stereotyped them. Not all of them are like that, but enough of them are to annoy me and sorry, I don’t want anymore to come this way.
The good still outweighs the bad in C-ville, so I ain’t goin’ no where just yet.
Yep. I got time to carp and complain on messageboards. Looks like you’ve got a bit of time on your hands as well.
Thanks for thinking of me as a hothead liberal. I’m glad that, just based on this issue, you are again able to label someone on minimal information. You are very perceptive.
I could look at beautiful buildings and admire perfect facilities all day, but if the byproducts of building such things are, in the big picture and over the long-term, not good for the area, I’d like to point that out. And yes, it is my opinion.
Beginning with AY 2003-04, first-years cannot bring cars to school at all, not even in second semester. This policy change happened this spring. (And a good one, I think we all agree.)
I’m curious, Indie–which of the university’s plans do you think should be curtailed? The South Lawn project doesn’t seem all that objectionable–it’s mostly rebuilding over stuff they’re going to demo, rather than building out (as I understand the plan). The new arena? the new arts building? The parking garage (though that one’s a done deal)? I’m wondering which of the planned expansions you find to be a big problem for the city. (That’s an honest question.)
"But the growth in the student population will mean growth in faculty and staff and other workers at UVa, and they aren’t all gonna want to live in the city."
Just to add something to Indie’s point here–even if all these (eventual) new workers WANTED to live in the city, they couldn’t, because (a) there’s a limited amount of housing available in the city and a cap on how much more we can add–space-wise, we’re running out of lots within the city limits, and (b) housing in the city is extremely expensive.
Theory: ShaftDu is either a troll or a seriously discombobulated person. He/she sounds like someone caricaturing (badly) the smart-growth/anti-growth position–the incoherence, the hysteria, the one-note insistence on "I moved here from Northern Virginia…" It doesn’t sound for real to me.
God, I hope it’s not for real.
To choose between 2 extremes, I prefer ShaftDu’s type. There’s *nothing* I dislike more than brainless sheep bowing to the powers that be. Blind ďpro-growthersĒ are gregarious imbeciles.
The jobless numbers are definitely ‘cooked’. Iím not saying this area cooks them for themselves, but I am saying that the way U.S. authorities count unemployment is a despicable joke. The jokeís on us, but Americans arenít willing to recognize that. Who do they count as unemployed? Well, they pretty much limit the numbers to those on the *active* unemployment roll call. So, if an unemployed person registers at all (in my estimate, thereís a huge amount of folks that donít even bother, I mean, what for?), then that person is dropped from the count once any benefits run out. Because this area has a mean household income thatís in the high 40ís (compared to the low 30ís for the rest of the U.S.: Equifax data circa 2002) and the single household earner puts us into the ďbedroomĒ type communities, overall, thereís a logical impact on the unemployment figures (downward emphasis).
In other words, if youíre a qualified professional in your late 30ís, early 40ís, go for a sole proprietorship and skip the Daily Regress classifieds.
What exactly is wrong with the people in charge of an organization running it like a corporation?
A lot. Schools ought not be run like corporations. That’s a dangerous path. Do you think those elementary schoolers should start pulling their weight? Middle schools should turn a profit?
No, that’s no good at all.
I’m really not entirely opposed to any of them, referring here to the construction of buildings (well, maybe the new arena, with all the increased game-day traffic it will bring in, but I can ultimately live with it). Infill is good planning in my book. I say build away with that in mind. (Yet the way the parking garage fiasco was handled set a bad precedent, and if any of the new projects go the same way, there will be a lot of unhappy folks.) I would even be pro-Target if it were located in the city (ie. intown, not the much outter-skirts as is being proposed). While I am making the case that C-ville doesn’t need the new jobs that will come with UVa’s planned construction projects, that arguement is more directly tied to what I am *really* opposed to, and that’s the influx of more and more students.
The city has enough problems now trying to house these students without turning whole neighborhoods into what Meredith Richards once referred to as "student ghettos." I just don’t see the University taking responsibility on that end. While I don’t agree with every goal the city promotes, I do agree that home ownership (something city officials want) makes for stable neighborhoods and that can’t really be achieved with hundreds of more students shacking up in rentals which are designed for families.
And I’m glad to hear that UVa’s policy has changed, re: first-years can’t have a car their first two semesters (I got my info. from their parking and registration website), but with anywhere to 400 to 1,100 additional cars possibly rolling through the city in a few years, that prospect doesn’t sit well with me. Using Barracks Road as an example, that area is already overwhelmed. It’s the summer and the students are supposedly out of town and its still crowded as all get-out; I can’t imagine what a headache it will be with more of them.
My perception is that UVa is not being responsible for housing their students and curbing their excesses (ie. parties, trashing up the neighborhood, and general obnoxiousness) in what I consider is still a smallish town. I know–they’ve been doing it for years. I am probably giving them too hard a time. I have been a student before so I can empathize. I just want a little–okay, a lot more–responsibility and accountability on UVa’s and the students’ parts!!!
My point is this: if Orange and Madison and Crozet are so good, why don’t you move there?
The “kiss my feet or move” mantra shows a low capacity for productive reasoning.
One thing about those other places as opposed to Charlottesville (which is a COLLEGE town)–you don’t get hotbeds of liberalism. What exactly is wrong with the people in charge of an organization running it like a corporation? Are you a socialist?
The “I’m American, not a socialist” leitmotiv and the probable American flag on the pickup truck in the middle of U.S. territory demonstrates a dire need to be part of the beehive.
Moved from Fairfax last year.
Yeah, i am here to state my thoughts againist them "pro-growthers". I totally agree with everyone that we should stop growth to a NIL here in Cville. And no I am not a troll. I moved here to get away from rapid uncontrollable growth. I love this area. I don’t want people to move here. I just don’t want big box shopping centers everyturn you make like in Fairfax.
While it is great that you respect Charlottesville and some people’s interest in slowing its growth, (I can’t believe I am about to make this statement), but don’t you think it is a little backward for you to say "I don’t want people to move here" when you just moved here yourself?
Indeed. But do realize by opposing all growth, you run the risk of not using the leverage we currently and precariously have at this time, to get acceptable, or even in my utopic dreams, valuable growth (in the ‘good-life’ sense of the value equation).
Au contraire. Having the confidence (and freedom) to move to a place that better suits his/her interests and then vehemently defending the status-quo of this new habitat is perfectly logical. Especially since he/she has seen what happens when right-wing pro-growthers are in control.
btw, I moved here from Tidewater 5 years ago myself for PRECISELY the same reason.
With that notion in mind then, don’t you see yourself as *contributing* to our area’s growth woes by having moved here? You’re just one more person we didn’t need.
And for the record, I believe anybody is free to move anywhere they want, I’m just trying to follow your line of thinking here.
no not really, i choose to move here because it was less busy and less crowded then NoVA. I just believe that we shouldn’t turn into where I came from. We need to zero out any growth here. And yes I do find it ironic! I just fell that the more people move it, the more spawl, and the constructions of newer building will force us to be a Northern VA. I have been following the Piedmont Environmental Council’s crusade to stop growth. I believe we must stop EVERY idea for growth. The only smart growth is NO GROWTH.
When you moved here, especially if it was within the past decade or so, Charlottesville was clearly poised for significant growth. Why the heck did you choose to move somewhere so clearly headed in a direction you so vehemently oppose? There are plenty of places in Virginia much more prepared for slow or no growth than Charlottesville.
You could argue that you are only defending Charlottesville’s status quo, but the status quo here recently has really been a great pressure to grow.
it means "shut the ***** up", which you really need to do.
well, since capt. dipshit has only been here a year, i guess i can understand his n00bness, and his inability to accept the fact that UVA own3s this town, and his tears ain’t doin’ a thing but gettin’ his shoes wet.
ok…i will give you that…the one thing i like about c’ville is NOT having all the traffic that hampton roads has. but i’ll take driving up rt. 29 over the midtown tunnel and hampton blvd. ANY day of the week!
I’m really tired of people making asinine comments about subjects they know nothing about. Do you realize that the "academic UVA" and the "athletic UVA" are 2 completely seperate, self standing entities? Casteen has nothing to do with fund raising for anything athletic related. The fund raising for the new stadium falls completely under the jurisidiction of Terry Holland and Craig Littlepage.
A little off the subject, but I can’t stand it when people are outraged by the fact that UVA has spent so much money recently on athletic facilities instead of academics. UVA has very little power over what they actually do with donated money, especially large gifts. Almost all money is given with strict stipulations on the projects the money will be used. If you’re upset with how the money is being spent, be mad at the donors, not the University.
As for Casteen, I have to admit I agree that a lot of his job deals with fundraising and securing gifts for the academic University, but to say that is his only job or even most of his job is completely ridiculous. The fact that you make your conclusions from the terrible media that surrounds Charlottesville without zero first hand knowledge is really disheartening. If you think it’s so easy to be a president of a major university, I think you should apply. Being president of a major university is really not much different than being CEO of a major, public company, do you think that’s an easy job?
Just to preface my comments, I am a life long resident of Charlottesville, graduate of the University and current employee of the UVA athletic department.
The driving, although horrible, was not even the biggest reason for me to move. But rather than saying what "Hampton Roads" is, I’ll say what cville is: a prominent university town with prevalent academia, a desire to preserve history and one of the only non-republican spots in Virginia. As I will not allow myself to move from Va for personal reasons for the next decade or so, I had to choose where *in* Va. Cville was choice #1, DC #2.
Population represents a genealogical pool from which to pull. Roanoke is an example of inbred population. In other words, newcomers, especially newcomers who’ve deliberately decided to move here (reminiscent of the New Americas, eh?), are a good thing (poor Martha Stewart).
‘ dipshit has only been here a year, i guess i can understand his n00bness’
Noobness? You are smoking crack.
There is a MINORITY of people who want that and other developments.
Do you have any facts to back this up? A cite? A source?
tons of it, bey0tch!
what this town needs is a MONORAIL!!!1
What do you want me to do? Give Casteen a call and ask him what he’s doing? I don’t think that’s gonna work….
The media is not the best in this town but they get SOME things right.
I will not address the core of your post, which is your own opinion, however self-serving. But when you say:
If you think it’s so easy to be a president of a major university, I think you should apply. Being president of a major university is really not much different than being CEO of a major, public company, do you think that’s an easy job?
Öthat, sir, is asinine (your words). ďApply for the jobĒ, ďmove if you donít like itĒ. Will this kind of puerile reasoning ever be left in the 1st grade? I work closely with CEOs of several major corporations, and yes, itís a damn sight easier than clocking in at 6AM to clean dishes, or one of the hundreds of other jobs people do. CEOs often achieve their pay scales and influence via family ties or other such non-merit ways. Itís all about who kisses ass, does it well and with relish, and who backs the other up. Have you not been paying attention to the explosion of stories surrounding obscene corporate officersí income packages? So get over yourself: itís a lot easier to drive to work in a BMW 740, enter offices of ostentatious luxury, be served gourmet coffee and look forward to lunch at the Boars Head with rich donators than your typical job. Get it straight. Maybe the rest of your message will be more plausibleÖ
at least you’re consistent: you love that qualifier. I wonder why?
If you understood anything about how the University runs, which can easily be discovered without personally calling Mr. Casteen, or really anything about corporate structure period then you would understand how off base your comments are. I guess the one thing that the completely unbiased local media did get right is their coverage of anything dealing with UVA, good for them. You should really refrain from stating things as fact when you personally don’t even understand the situation.
NO, we shouldn’t have a monorail. What is this Disney World? What type of suggestion is that? Are you smocking crack again?
I have been reading these boards for the last few months. Everyone in here will agree with me, GROWTH = BAD. It is bad in any form or shape. Even if it is UVA. We must put pressure on them to stop. If we do not, there will be car to car to car traffic. I just got a newspaper from the Piedmont Coucil stating that we must stop them.
What you’re saying doesn’t even hold any merit. I agree that advancement in the business world, or anywhere for that matter, has a pretty direct correlation to "who you know". But, to make the wide ranging comment that ALL CEO’s are basically lazy and don’t deserve their jobs is ridiculous. There are many business leaders out their that, after spending many rigourous years in academia, worked just as hard as anyone else to get where they are today. If you don’t realize, there are many different forms of hard work and pretty much irrelevant to compare a dish washer to a CEO, I’m sure both are very hard workers.
You need to GET OVER YOURSELF and understand that, while you may not agree, we live in a capitalist society. I’m sorry if my first grade reasoning was too much for you to handle.
You’ve never watched the Simpsons? Christ.
I have been reading these boards for the last few months. Everyone in here will agree with me, GROWTH = BAD. It is bad in any form or shape.
Though reading these boards would hardly count as evidence, even that statement is incorrect. A poll that Waldo ran a little while back showed that the vast majority here were for growth. Most wanted growth the be slow and/or controlled, but there were very, very few votes for “no growth at all”.
I just got a newspaper from the Piedmont Coucil stating that we must stop them.
Do you mean these folks?
I don’t believe that they qualify as either an unbiased source (the “Preservation Organization of the Year”), nor as a “Majority”.
I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, but your claims that the majority of people, either on this website or in the Charlottesville area, agree with you have no visible basis in fact. I’m willing to be corrected, if you can show me that there’s a “majority” of people that agree with you, or even a significant minority.
The vast majority of the people that I know feel that growth will and should continue, and that that growth should be carefully managed to prevent this area from turning into another Northern Virginia.
I won’t "refrain" from anything, thank you. As far my comments about Casteen go, they are my *perceptions.* You show me where I referred to my thoughts on his job and seemingly overattention to fundraising as "facts."
Tell me then, how am I supposed to know what Casteen is doing if I don’t work there and if I don’t get it from the media. I am open to suggestions. I’m for damn sure not going to take it from some poster unless he/she wants to provide me with some secondary source.
So you work at UVa… if you are as much of an rude jerk at work that you are here, I wonder why they keep you around. You aren’t "representin’" UVa very well here.
I didn’t say all officers in the executive suite are lazy or stupid or unworthy. What I am reacting to is the blanket endorsement of people in high places and the fallacious reasoning that one can’t disagree with anyone unless one is willing to apply for the job.
And I do believe in capitalism, more so than you know. But I do not adhere to the foolish premise than everything that brandishes the capitalism flag is the way to go. In fact, the more time goes by, the more inbred the system gets, especially as a majority of folks are dogmatic followers. Think elois in the Time Machine (the original movie, based on H.G. Wellsí novel, with Rod Taylor).
UVA has to grow, there are more and more students applying every year, and they are pressed to keep their acceptance rates up.
If you are opposed to growth, you are for overcrowding. There WILL be more and more people alive every day. And if you limit the space for them, they’ll end up closer together.
If you think this is a good idea, do me a favor and buy 10 mice and put them in a small tank and wait. A few months later, take a look at what happened and ask yourself if that looks like a good idea for people to do too.
who is talking, I am writing. Yeah, I take it you are a right winger who is only for the rich. What don’t you get out of my town if you don’t like what I am saying.
Your allegory lends itself to dozens of interpretations. Does the tank with the mice in it represent UVA? Whatever the accurate premise, the real conclusion of your story is that growth must be carefully controlled; in other words, donít let things just happen.
UVa doesn’t HAVE to grow. By your line of thinking, when the year 2050 rolls around, it’d be okay if the university has a student body of 50,000+.
And just b/c more and more students are applying, doesn’t mean they need to accept them all. They should just up their acceptance standards.
And I am not opposed to growth, I am for controlled, well-planned growth. UVa usually does a good job in that department, with a few exceptions. But the idea of increasing the student population is not a good idea. We’ve alreay got to many "mice" (using your analogy) scampering about, why add to the problem? If an increase is coming, the city and university need to model its housing strategy based on that of New York City, where they build *up* and not *out.* They need to increase density in the city to curb sprawl of student ghettos.
Academic standards are not what they used to be. And the biggest problem of all is that almost everyone thinks they’re destined to have a college degree. It’s the plague of modern America: every waiter, plumber-helper, construction worker, hairdresser, store employee, emergency-room admittance clerk, salesperson or tire-mechanic seem always just doing their work only temporarily until a better gig comes along. Of course, in the meantime, they’re doing a piss-poor job.
The problems that arise from this generalized misconception are (amongst others):
* A quasi-universal lack of professionalism
* Over-indebted and under-focused young population
* Lack of respect for artisanship, loss of tradition, glorification of superficiality and everything ďnewĒ as opposed to our eldersí experience
* Ancillary consequences, such as artificially over-crowded colleges, over-emphasis on sports scholarships, etc.
2001UVAlum writes Do you realize that the "academic UVA" and the "athletic UVA" are 2 completely seperate, self standing entities?
The Athletic Department is an "auxiliary enterprise" of the University and is therefore "expected" to be self-supporting. . . but it ainít. It consistently runs a deficit Ė and, moreover, expenses are expected to continue to climb and revenues from TV and apparel are expected to level off or decline. Thatís why the BOV approved a special $50 fee to be tacked onto studentís bills (but I donít think it has been instituted yet, because these things need to be approved by Richmond; thereís a state law that forbids schools to spend tuition money on athletics). And the new fee would be added to that good portion (about 20 percent) of the student fees already go to the Athletic Dept.
Secondly, the University recognizes that "academic UVa" (to use your phrase) and "athletic UVa" are not "separate". Thatís why the budget office charges the Athletic Dept. (and all other auxiliary enterprises) an overhead rate (of about 6 percent) to defray the costs of general administration . . . like Casteen jetting out to court donors.
2001UVAlum writes Casteen has nothing to do with fund raising for anything athletic related.
Heís involved in fundraising for athletics Ė as, I think, he should be, because many donors provide funds for both academic and athletic purposes.
Heís also involved (as I think he should be) in hiring top-level athletic department employees.
2001UVAlum writes The fund raising for the new stadium falls completely under the jurisidiction of Terry Holland and Craig Littlepage.
Wrong (see above).
FYI: Terry reports directly to Casteen. Littlepage reports to Leonard Sandridge, who reports to Casteen.
2001UVAlum writes As for Casteen, I have to admit I agree that a lot of his job deals with fundraising and securing gifts for the academic University, but to say that is his only job or even most of his job is completely ridiculous.
Wrong. A good report (for which Casteen was apparently the primary source) described his schedule as utterly dominated by fundraising.
Which is fine. That’s the job he was hired to do, and heís good at it.
Iíd suggest that your impression of his schedule and job arenít shared by most students and faculty. No one I know really thinks that heís managing the university on a day to day basis Ė thatís Leonardís job, and his promotion to EVP and COO was a recognition of the new nature of the presidency.
2001UVAlum writes I’m really tired of people making asinine comments about subjects they know nothing about.
There will always be MORE PEOPLE. In only 150 years (not long on the time scale of UVA) there will be 25 billion people on earth. If you think you can control growth of the student population, you’re going to have to have a LOT of guys working at a LOT of fast food places to remove such a high percentage of people in college.
Obviously growth can be done poorly. As you term "student ghettos".
There are ways around it. UVA can build temporary student housing until they can build "up" and then turn that housing over to the city to use as hotels (something we tend to have a huge demand for).
Just because you are afraid someone will do it wrong, doesn’t give you license to do nothing and ignore the intractable population explosion. If UVA doesn’t expand, A new college will have to be built somewhere. Either way, more students are going to be stomping around the perimeter of your white picket fence. And probably tossing more beer cans on your lawn. Tough titties.
It represents the planet. Or the country or whatever trap we humans find ourselves in.
If you have limited space and limited resources, quality of life will be inversely proportional to population. The argument you have against growth is that it will be asthetically unpleasing, ugly. The reason this is possible is people are involved in each of the decisions made during the process, and some have different motives than you do. Turning control over to other people is to you "just letting stuff happen".
"Somone might disagree with me, so I’ll just not let anyone do anything at all…" yeah, thats a good way to get nothing done. The way 3rd world countries turn into festering ghettos is by increasing poulation without increasing infrastructure. How about we tell people who want apartments and homes in charlottesville that they should just build a shanty town outside the city because we’re all full here.
Then let’s do something about that nasty general population explosion, shall we?
And the city doesn’t have THAT huge of a demand for hotels. Most of their hotels are booked up during UVa graduation only. The rest of the year they probably do average to below average business. Why do you think they complain about the Omni being such a money pit all the time?
"Either way, more students are going to be stomping around the perimeter of your white picket fence. And probably tossing more beer cans on your lawn. Tough titties. "
I think the white picket fence is around UVa. While they expand, they will exclude their student population from living within their confines on a daily basis. They are not taking responsibility for housing their students. This is a discussion that city council has been having for a while. If you are going to increase attendence, build some dorms ON GROUNDS for your students so they don’t have to get in their cars and drive and so they don’t have live in rental housing (homes designed for families), thus destabilizing the neighborhoods with their transient nature. If they live on grounds they will also be able to toss their trash on the lawn all they want but the community will be satisfied to know that UVa’s custodial staff will be along soon enough to pick it up.
"Then let’s do something about that nasty general population explosion, shall we? "
That is such a large can of worms, no poltician wants to touch it – immigrants,birth control, religion ,two – three kids per family, government support for prolific unmarrieds, lack of enforcement of sire responsibility, it is like the elephant in the wedding party – it is there but no one wants to see it – but it is nice you mentioned it.
I definitely know no one wants to touch that subject–that’s why I framed the question around sarcasm, although it is a worthwhile subject to discuss. But that’s topic for another messageboard and another day.
What you say?
All your growth are belong to us.
Does this mean that we’ll all have to eat yeast products and people?
Hey, don’t knock the yeast products.
Since this topic has brought the board to life there will be further discussion about it on 91.9 WNRN’s weekly talk show this coming Sunday (6/29) from 11am-noon. If you would like to be one of the guests on the panel please e-mail AbstractME@aol.com for consideration. You must be in the studio to particpate. Make sure to put ‘radio show’ or something similar in the subject line so that your letter is not confused with spam.
Thanks to Waldo for allowing me to post this invitation.
much of the concern about UVA expansion seems to center around the fact that more students will be coming to town. and also around the university not doing enough to control them, house them, punish them for their excesses.
and it occured to me that the root of the problem is actually parents. i have been a student at uva on and off for about 12 years now…and i never left trash anywhere, only occasionally had a car in town and was generally very respectful of my neighbors while i lived all over charlottesville. the thing is, my folks taught me something about how one should treat others. from the kids i see in high school (i teach that age) and many of the current students i know at UVA…no one is bothering to teach them anything. i’m not saying that the university doesn’t have responsibility here, but at some point, its also the students and their parents who have to realize that some things just aren’t ok.
And I can’t see a solution in sight. Can you? I mean, really, not just you and me preaching but how to motivate folks that couldn’t care less?
The problem is that a lot of people move here from NoVa, NY, etc. and expect the same kind of services and stores available here from wherever they used to live. There’s also the change in the past 20+ years of shopping as a major leisure activity. When you come to C’ville after living anywhere, coming to this area and seeing what the mall has and what stores, is a shock (and frankly, even the shopping in Winchester is better than C’ville stores so I’m not dismissing the complaints entirely). Still, one shouldn’t move to a new area and expect the same types of stores, etc.
It’s very much like where my parents live (up in the Shenandoah Valley). They lived on a dirt road that got scrapped once or twice a year and had to take their trash to the dump for years. More people moved from the suburbs of Va. wanting the peace and quiet of the countryside. (They commuted to DC, etc.) But when they moved there to the country, they were appalled to find out that they had to take their trash to a trash dump site (not a dump but rather a roadside trash pickup area now), demanded paved roads, cable, and were very unhappy during the drought as they had to be careful with their well water. The monthly fees that my parents have increased (although there is still no roadside trash pick up unless you contract it on your own). It’s not to say that paved roads are bad (my parents appreciate it now that they are older) or cable is bad but it’s just a matter of perhaps lowering or changing one’s expectations of a community insteading of demanding something. But what do I know? I lived out in the country where you had to drive at least 10 miles to get to a dumpy little town to do anything (like banking, groceries, PO) and it was a big(but fun) deal to go shopping for a new outfit or shoes. Again, it was a special occasion to go shopping and make a day of it instead of killing time, etc. (And, no, I’m not really that old — just 43 years old.)
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