Seven Charlottesville High School students have been charged with assault and battery, wounding by mob, and abduction after they brutally attacked a fellow student in McIntire Park early Monday afternoon. Reportedly, the seven were skipping school when a 16-year-old male came across them in the park around 1pm. One youth attacked the victim first, with the rest following suit thereafter, kicking and punching him. One of the attackers made the victim lick his own blood off of the attackers’ boot. Another urinated on him. Interestingly, during the attack, the all-white attackers reportedly told their victim, who is also white, to claim that he was attacked by a black gang. The names of the attackers and the victim, due to their ages, have not been released. If all of this sounds familiar, recall last winter’s series of attacks on white UVa students by a group of black CHS students, although the racial aspect to those attacks made the entire case quite divisive. Reed Williams has the story in today’s Daily Progress.
Sideblog
Police announced this afternoon that their investigation into what was initially believed to be a fatal fire on Rugby Avenue is now a homicide investigation. #
The Virginia Supreme Court has denied George Huguely’s appeal. His second-degree murder conviction will stand, WRIC reports. #
In a carefully worded story, and not citing specific sources, WTVR reports that forensic evidence belonging to Jesse Matthew Jr., the main suspect in the disappearance of Hannah Graham, matches forensic evidence collected during the investigation of Morgan Harrington’s 2009 murder. #
In the wake of Hannah Graham’s disappearance, and the evidence that came from private security footage, city officials are revisiting the question of installing security cameras on the downtown mall. #
Both Charlottesville Registrar Sheri Iachetta and former Electoral Board member Stephanie Commander have turned themselves in to the police on
four six and four felony counts of embezzlement, respectively. #Ten years ago, the National Institutes of Health budget doubled and schools like the University of Virginia built massive new research facilities. A decade later, those buildings remain largely underutilized. NPR visits UVA in this story on the effect of federal binge and spurge spending in the sciences. #
In 2012, Council approved a new student housing complex on West Main—now some council members are questioning whether what they were shown matches what was built. #
The Architectural Review Board has approved a bike-themed mural on West Market, below the McGuffey Art Center, although at least one member expressed concerns that it might look like the bicyclists were riding away from Charlottesville’s downtown. #
City Police Chief Tim Longo is meeting with city leaders to work on protocols regarding the use of military surplus police weapons in Charlottesville. #
A 100-year-old Colonnades resident received military honors for her service in the WWII Women’s Army Corps #
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Good, I’m glad that our young career criminals wont be learning anything. They might get jobs or something, and pay taxes and vote instead of consuming $35,000 of tax money a year in jail where they belong.
worthless individuals. they should be locked up, along with their parents for raising such hoodlums.
Speak up!
Dave Chapman, Commonwealth Attorney
Commonwealth Attorney’s Office
Room 331, City Hall
PO Box 911
Charlottesville, VA 22902
Phone: (434) 970-3176
Fax: (434) 971-8202
Tell him that you think, hopefully that you want these degenerates punished to the fullest extent of the law, and their parents as well for not being responsible for their children.
We can only hope that the Justice System will not see this as mere “youthful indiscretions” but the actions of violent inveterate criminals who should not be treated with kid gloves.
Jim
maybe i’ll walk down there at lunch time. that’s what pissed me off about those kids last winter. the whole "they’re really good kids who were just bored" argument is total BS. assault is assault. i don’t actually think the parents should be punished, but they do need to take a long, hard look at how they’re raising their kids. maybe a year or two getting their own asses kicked in lockup will teach these kids a lesson.
Childish doings are forgivable, even impulsive stealing. But something’s wrong with kids committing the kind of crimes against each other that was protrayed in this news report.
These kids should have to stand in defense alongside their parents in an adult court of law and face assault & battery charges. The kids should face jail time or community service… but licking public urinals until they are clean would be their just desserts…
You dont need to tell him what you think, I can already guess what he wants to do to these people. And I hope he does.
I was just commenting on the absurdity of expelling these students from school. Which is what they would do if they were convicted of assault. They will recieve nothing that even approximates an education in prison, and be released knowing nothing more than what they learned from PRISON INMATES. This is simply counter productive, unless of course you happen to be a cop or a judge or a lawyer or a prison gaurd etc. Then it’s your bread and butter.
Then again, they might just learn too much and embezzle billions of dollars from hapless investors…. maybe I’m wrong…
yeah, the absurdity strikes me too. okay, we’re disgusted by these kids and their actions–appalled, repelled, angry. so we lock them up and get what in the end? the same kids, now older and meaner and more wily from their experience in whatever incarceration they get sent to. I mean, no one believes any more in the rehabilitation end of incarceration, do they?
so it seems that if you’re going to immediately throw the book at juvenile offenders and lock them up, you might as well make every sentence a life (or even death) sentence. because by locking these kids up in our current prison system, you’re just going to make them worse members of society when they get out. since you’re not willing to spend any money on reforming or rehabilitating people, why this charade of prison as in any way a useful or meaningful thing? it doesn’t make the streets safer in any long-term sense because it isn’t reforming anyone. it takes bad people off the street temporarily and returns them to the streets even worse than they were before. what good is that?
please note: i am not myself saying that all sentences should be life sentences or death penalties. i’m saying that those who call for harsh punishment and prison terms for juvenile assaulters have a logical problem on their hands.
“those who call for harsh punishment and prison terms for juvenile assaulters have a logical problem on their hands.”
What viable alternatives are there? These kids (and their peers who are certainly watching) must be taught that they will be held accountable for their actions.
The kids who did the “wilding” style attacks were not given sufficient punishments for their crimes.
What do we do with these children? I assume that they do not have parents who raise them carefully, so “house-arrest” will not suffice. Jail will harden them and teach them other unsavory behaviors; and will certainly not rehabilitate them. Keep them in school?
My answer – develop a regional boot-camp school where they will learn, in no uncertain terms, that their actions have consequences? These “kids” will be able to learn in an environment that is conducive to teaching and learning, and they will stay in this school until the age of 19. Parents will be able to request for their children to attend these schools, rather than wait for the Criminial Justice System to send them.
These schools will be single-sex for the obvious reasons.
–Jim
What viable alternatives are there? These kids (and their peers who are certainly watching) must be taught that they will be held accountable for their actions.
I have long maintained that we should re-institute the use of the lash.
Seriously.
It should be public. There should be a doctor on hand to minister antiseptic (not anesthetic), they should be held for 4 – 8 hours for observation, then released. Numbers of lashes could be varied by offense and repetition, and if necessary incarceration (with hard labor) could also be utilized.
You’ve got to be kidding.
You’ve got to be kidding.
Why? :)
what’s your evidence that this would actually be effective as a deterrent?
Heh, let me dodge the question momentarily by asking this, "What evidence is there that the current system is any sort of deterrent?"
Looks like most folks agree that locking them up will only result in more wily criminals once they’re released, and won’t deter future, similar happenings from them or anyone else. Right?
America has several KEY issues now and coming up over the next decades. One of them is the U.S. criminal law and penal system. For a synopsus of the issue, see ‘The Economist’, August 10, 2002, or if you are subscribed, your can check this link:
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29H%24%2BPQ%27%23%23P%23D&CFID=6412023&CFTOKEN=5583806-a025b026-a243-40ec-bda3-589d695738e3
We feel we need to be “tough on crime”, yet our solution of sending large amounts of our population to a place that can only realistically make them even more dangerous and sociopathic is naďve at best, stupid at best too.
The whole process needs to be 100% reformed. And this must be done now rather than later. Those on this forum who wish to make fully responsible parents for their kids actions are often the ones that can’t fathom American society’s responsibilities within this endemic problem. Once you get past the puerile discussions intended to hide the problem, as in “we only know about this because of TV and all our formidable communications”, getting down to the root of the problems is probably insurmountable within people’s current thinking.
To wit: if I say a substantial chunk of the criminal part of our society is due to America’s adoration of money and power, I’m taking the risk of getting stoned. Many will say I’m searching way too far. But I bet if you look deep into the lives of these 7 teens, you’ll find parental apathy and disconnect. The parents are often either competing with the Joneses for that bigger 60 inch Plasma Cinemascope Flat monitor/TV, or maybe, they’re simply trying to survive Business’ alleged need to pay them only $6 an hour. So they work and they work and they work. Or, this is entirely another possible scenario, the parents are on welfare and the children are brought up to resent everyone because the tough capitalists among us have decreed that welfare is a BURDEN.
I could go on and on as you can see (read). I will say this: history is not over! America was very smug when the Berlin Wall came down, feeling superior in every way. If we continue on the path we have put, and we are definitely digging the groove of this path deeper and deeper, we will regret our false and unintelligent sense of superiority.
of course. but you know as well as i do that saying that the current system sucks does not prove that the proposed system would be at all effective.
i thought maybe you were going to go a Malaysia route–talk about one of the nations in which they do use public, painful, corporal punishment as a deterrent. Heck, the Taliban were big fans of the public punishment–didn’t they use Kabul’s major soccer field for public guttings and hangings?
That’ll teach those criminals!
"We feel we need to be “tough on crime”, yet our solution of sending large amounts of our population to a place that can only realistically make them even more dangerous and sociopathic is naďve at best, stupid at best too."
Agreed. Current criminal justice and incarceration policies seem to be at heart more about revenge, about a desire to inflict suffering on criminals, than about anything else. Of course rage and a desire for revenge is natural. But that doesn’t make it a good basis for a criminal justice system, and I think most of us on this board agree that the current criminal justice system is a joke.
Also: there’s not enough rational long-term thinking in this arena. No one has the patience or the ability to think "okay–what would make things better over the long term?" that would entail addressing the root causes of crime, which sadly cannot be reduced to a simple, binaristic view of choice, i.e., "he chose to commit that crime, therefore lock him up."
"To wit: if I say a substantial chunk of the criminal part of our society is due to America’s adoration of money and power, I’m taking the risk of getting stoned. " Yay. Thank you.
I agree, while there are such things as "torture camps" which DO NOT WORK and are illegal in America, discipline and education are gifts you can give to someone who’s probably not going to enjoy life without them.
Back in the day, minors were not sent into the adult prison system. They were sent to reform school. Education is a key factor. Just ask the FBI, educated people are less likely to commit crimes. We cant prevent crime entierly, but we can do everything we can to limit it.
Such a boot-camp must teach discipline, as well as a basic pre-college education. And must be opted in by the student. As an alternative to the prison system. That might even be WORTH the tax money. Maybe.
1. I cannot get to the Economist link as it is “premium content.”
2. If the parents are “competing with the Jones,” who is responsible for their actions? Society for dictating that one must always have more or the individuals for not having/having developed the self-control to realize the difference between want and need? If you want everyone to be equal, take a look at Germany and see how succesful they have been with their Socialist agenda.
3. How do we change the system? There is an abundance of people saying, “This is bad/wrong/unfair,” but not many saying, “We should do this.”
4. “… he chose to commit that crime, therefore lock him up.” Perhaps this is too short-sighted, but until society dictates personal responibility for one’s actions, and the public holds those convicted accountable, we are in for a continued demise of our societal mores.
Unless we try one of these boot-camps, we will never know.
Discipline is something that is not taught by schools, not often enough by parents, and rarely by peers.
Virginia Bootcamps
of course. but you know as well as i do that saying that the current system sucks does not prove that the proposed system would be at all effective.
You are correct.
Unfortunately, I do not have any solid “proof” that I can point to, and indeed, proposing it at all is something of a thought experiment. I’ve asked myself this question before, “What would happen if we used corporal punishment as a replacement for (relatively) short jail/prison terms?” I have yet to run into a definite answer.
I don’t think trying to compare it to Malaysia or other countries that use similar tactics would be fair, since the environment, laws, constitution, and society are radically different. Too many other varying factors would contribute to observable differences for us to attribute any of them to this particular variable.
Instead, I base my “suggestion” on a more anecdotal sort of evidence, and some reasoning, than any example that I can point to. For instance, compare the top 5 school crimes from 50 years ago, and the top 5 school crimes today. If I recall correctly, the top 5 school crimes “back then” included things like smoking in the bathroom, insubordination, skipping class, and talking during class. These days it tends to be more along the lines of drug abuse, violence, weapons violations, rape, etc.
While there were many differences between that society and this one, we can at least infer that this variable played some role. 50 years ago, corporal punishment in schools was more or less the rule, instead of the exception. Heck, even in my own childhood I dealt with corporal punishment in school, both from the private school that I attended for a while, and our public school. Those schools, as a rule, had a very different environment than we see today.
I don’t think that the pain in those students’ rear-ends was necessarily the primary motivator, but I do believe that it directly re-inforced the idea that one’s actions had definite consequences, and you could count on experiencing them. These days, it’s very easy to find a kid who believes that they can do anything they want to, and what are you gonna do about it? The possible consequences that they face today are frequently not immediate, rarely painful in any sense, almost always boring, and short-lived. Effectively, a big kid’s “time-out”, which, as has been noted already in this thread, can often have exactly the opposite effect of what we want. And so the kid grows up into an adult that has the same attitudes, except that now when he beats some random passer-by, he goes up the river for 15 to 20 years instead (hopefully).
I propose that corporal punishment, for kids as well as adults, would provide the immediacy, the reinforcement that is lacking today. Additionally pain, and the anticipation of pain, is one of the most powerful training tools there is, and is built directly into our bodies. From birth pain warns us when something threatens our well-being, or even existence. As a deterrence, it can be one of the most effective.
Would it prove effective in the long run? I think yes and no. Would it prove more effective than the current system? I’m not sure, but I think it would. For most, I’d imagine getting 3 lashes for nabbing that purse from the department store would be a fairly powerful message. Or getting 10 lashes for starting a bar brawl might tend to make you a little more conscious about how much you drink, or how much offense you’re going to take from some other jerk. Or getting 15 lashes for embezzling from your company might cause you to keep your hand out of the cookie jar. Or getting 20 lashes for taking part in beating an innocent passer-by might make you decide that you’ve chosen the wrong path.
There will be exceptions, of course, and assuming that the message doesn’t get across by the first time (or two), I would say that a different approach must be taken. Personally, I favor something similar to Jim’s boot-camp idea, though with some differences. I’d propose basically what he did, combined with some sort of substantial manual labor. It ain’t, after all, supposed to be summer camp. Plus it gives them a chance to really pay their debt to society, whether they want to or not.
Getting back to the corporal punishment issue, though, I think there are some nice checks and balances that could be instituted to help prevent abuse. For instance, a jury (or judge) that assigns it as a punishment, should be made to witness it. Also, in the case of “smaller” crimes, as it is today, first offenses should largely be handled by fines. Corporal punishment should largely be reserved for repeat offenses, at least until you start reaching the more serious, or violent, crimes. Over-all, the punishment should be carefully balanced to the crime.
I think if corporal punishment were instituted carefully, it could have a very positive effect on our justice system. And I also believe that if instituted carelessly, it could eventually make things far worse.
But I also think that if things continue the way they’re going now, that it’ll get far worse anyway.
"or the individuals for not having/having developed the self-control to realize the difference between want and need?"
Tell me where this comes from. you write as if the development of self-control is freely floating in the atmosphere and all one has to do is reach out a hand and voila–you’ve got self-control. Does it really work like that?
How did you develop self-control? You weren’t born with it–none of us are. You didn’t get it from independent study. It wasn’t magically granted to you as a birthday wish. Probably someone started by teaching it to you (parents, coaches, good teachers, siblings, friends, etc.). As you moved along through life, you either got that lesson reinforced (good boy for showing self-control) or perhaps undermined (here you go, boy, here’s a reward for being a bad boy). By the time you got to adulthood, you apparently had internalized enough of the societal requirement of self-control to be able to function in middle-class mainstream society. lucky for you.
I think that’s generally how we acquire self-control. But do you see where I’m going to go with this? Look at all the variables along the way–you’ve got to have people capable of teaching the right lessons available to you, they have to be willing to take the time to do it, there have to be reinforcements along the way (and the anti-reinforcements have to be minimal). That’s a lot of variables. The experiment may or may not be successful in all cases, depending on the variables. I turned out okay, more or less; some of my peers may not have turned out so good.
I know it’s really messy and complicated to take into account all the socially constructed variables that go into making up an individual personality. But I’m afraid that’s the way people are–complicated. Do you really take full credit for every single virtue you possess, without acknowledging the help you had along the way to developing those virtues? Do you think you produced them yourself out of thin air? I doubt you think that. So why is it any different when you talk about a person’s faults? Why do you insist that those belong to the person and the person alone?
Note: Recognizing the role played by social training in the development of individual character does NOT necessarily mean you can’t punish individuals or try to retrain individuals. But I just don’t GET this ban on talking about how culture and society help to shape individual character! No one has ever satisfactorily explained to me WHERE exactly things like self-control and other virtues come from if they don’t come from….SOCIETY.
Well, that’s the age-old classical philosophical debate: is a baby born good and it’s society that infiltrates the evil, or is the baby born with evil in him? Jean-Jacques Rousseau versus Jean-Paul Sartres.
Everyone can have an opinion on this and I’m not sure there’s an incorrect answer to this debate. My personal opinion tends to mix both ideas (of course, I couldn’t be simple, could I?)
That said, everyone pretty much can agree we need to deal with evil (or bad / anti-social) behavior, because otherwise, we might as well revert back to the times without law and order. In fact, with the way our society works today, that is, very dysfunctionally, I feel some kinship to those who would do away with “law and order” entirely. And that’s a long story no one’s interested in, except maybe me, so…
…we need to deal with crime. But I am with you, Cecil, in that we cannot just look at crime in a vacuum, jail all offenders and throw away the key. We need to have the COURAGE and DETERMINATION to look at the root causes of crime and work hard to change things that germinate criminals.
But before we can do that, there has to be a political will. And this is what is so sorely lacking in the U.S.
I have the feeling that if you wanted to prove that 2+2=5, you would certainly give it a whirl!!!
Corporal punishment is archaic. It is a festering ground for sadists. There’s very little positive in physical punishment.
50 years ago, things were very different. Hard work was valued. Politeness was the norm. Social responsibility was respected. Ethical behavior was considered good. Loyalty paid dividends. Your word was gold.
Today, all that has changed. Hard work is no guaranty for success. Being polite is sissy. SUVs and cell phones while driving is the norm. Getting even is cool. You can get laid off after the board of directors has paid themselves the last million. Divorce is rampant.
And compared to all that, you think that corporal punishment is a major difference between now and then just because you want to validate it???
Having said this, I do believe there are [very] restricted cases that could benefit from corporal punishment, for instance, in cases of bullying or some physical attacks. I feel those 7 teens should get a notion of what it’s like to be beat up and humiliated, especially since they were 7 against 1. I think they should be put in forced labor until they’ve paid for all medical costs. I even think they need to compensate the victim for pain and suffering for a reasonable amount.
"since you’re not willing to spend any money on reforming or rehabilitating people."
Typical liberal rehtoric. Full of critism and ideas, confident that the "system" is doing it all wrong, and as always, the solution is to spend more tax payer money. Only, you never suggest as to where these funds should come from. But I can guess. We can tax cigarettes. Tax the rich. Reduce military spending. All sorts of things we can tax that probably don’t take any money from YOUR pocket.
Liberals are great at spending everyone else’s money. But what the hell, it’s for a good cause.
Here’s my solution. Don’t throw them in prison. Just let the victims family beat the crap out of them.
And to all you idiots that scream "throw the parents in jail" – obviously, you don’t have kids. Today’s society makes it very difficult to properly discipline children when the hashest punishment you can disk out legally is "time out."
"Stop dealing those drugs junior, or you’ll be in time out."
"Stop assaulting helpless UVA students junior, or you’ll be in time out."
Granted, there are a lot of deadbeat parents out there, but I DO think it’s possible for a parent to do everything right and still have something go wrong with the child. There is a lot out there that is simply out of your control. Parents are afraid of their kids these days in a society in which 1st graders are asked questions about how their parents treat them. One wrong answer, and BOOM you’re in a world of hurt. It happens.
Now your talking. Hurts like hell, but certainly not fatal. And, you’ll awlways have the scars to remind you of your deed.
Some of the country’s with the lowest crime rates still use lashings, but in the "civilized" world we believe it’s more civil and parole offenders so that they can inflict more harm on innocents.
After all, criminals have the right to cable TV. :)
There is actually a lawsuit against a prison system for using bread and water as a punishment for inmates. I guess meatloaf and mashed potatoes are definitely in order. Perhaps a martini with that, Mr. Inmate?
"We need to have the COURAGE and DETERMINATION to look at the root causes of crime and work hard to change things that germinate criminals."
Can you get us started? I’d love to see where this goes, but I am sure at some point we’ll end up with a HAVE/HAVE NOTS situation where those of us who bust our butts and make a good living will somehow have to make do with less in order to share our good fourtune.
That IS the driving force behind crime, isn’t it? I want more, I can’t afford it, so I steal. We can come up with some psycho-babble explanation if we want to, but in the end it’s money and power that drive crime.
Should a crime be punished with a free college education? It’s true that our system of justice is primarily desinged to make the victims feel better. "We through the bastard in jail, Ms. Jones."
Do we instead want to live in a country that says "Ms. Jones, we put him in jail where he’ll receive a free college education with your tax dollars. We’re sure you understand."
We have to decide right away if we want to PUNISH or REHABILITATE. It’s easy for non-victims to scream "rehabilitate" – but sometimes becoming a victim yourself can change your point of view dramatically.
Perhaps rehabilitation is the correct path. But does this also need a punitive component as well? If so, to what degree? Do we even care about the victims feelings, or are we only concerned with helping the criminal? Are all criminals victims of a socety that has let them down?
Perhaps when a poor criminal mugs a wealthy person we should throw the wealthy person in jail and reward the true victim, the criminal, who was denied all the wonderful things the wealthy have by a society that simply doesn’t care, and thus "driven" into a life of crime. Perhaps all crimes are simply calls for help from a growing society of victims, none of whom are REALLY responsible for their actions.
The only real way to stop crime is to make everyone the same with no hope of change. As long as there is a chance that I can have what you do not, there is a chance you’ll try and take what I have. That’s just the way nature works, unfourtunately. I don’t like it – but I have watched "Wild Kingdom" enough times to see a small lion lose it’s fresh kill to a bigger lion who was to lazy to get his own. So see, it’s not just us. :)
"That IS the driving force behind crime, isn’t it? I want more, I can’t afford it, so I steal."
Well, that’s the driving force behind theft…but this thread (and this larger conversation) are concerned with more than just theft. I don’t agree that all motivations can be reduced to money. I think people jump and beat up other people for a variety of complex reasons. It’s simplistic to reduce it to have/have not (though undoubtedly that plays a role).
"Do we instead want to live in a country that says ‘Ms. Jones, we put him in jail where he’ll receive a free college education with your tax dollars. We’re sure you understand.’"
Honestly? What if it were framed like this: "Ms. Jones, we put him in jail to limit his chances of hurting anyone again, and while we have physical control over him, we’re going to give him education, training, and counseling so that when he gets out, he’ll be less likely to commit another crime." Yes, I’d have to say that I would accept that. It’s in my long-term best interests (not to mention those of my children) that bad people don’t come out of jail worse than when they went it. And yes, I accept that I have to pay for part of this. Especially when I consider that what I’m currently already paying for is incarceration that makes them worse. THAT pisses me off as a real waste of my tax dollars.
"It’s easy for non-victims to scream ‘rehabilitate’- but sometimes becoming a victim yourself can change your point of view dramatically."
All you’re saying here is that victims have a heightened emotional reaction to criminals and crime; that doesn’t mean that their reaction is the RIGHT one. Some would argue that the victimized are in the worst possible position to make rational decisions that serve long-term best interests. Craving for revenge is understandable, but that doesn’t make it right.
"Perhaps when a poor criminal mugs a wealthy person we should throw the wealthy person in jail and reward the true victim, the criminal, who was denied all the wonderful things the wealthy have by a society that simply doesn’t care, and thus "driven" into a life of crime. Perhaps all crimes are simply calls for help from a growing society of victims, none of whom are REALLY responsible for their actions."
Okay, now you’re getting ridiculous. No one on this board has argued against punishing people convicted of crimes. Even the most left-leaning of us (Sympatico, me) are a still saying "bad people go to jail."
"Only, you never suggest as to where these funds should come from. But I can guess. We can tax cigarettes. Tax the rich. Reduce military spending. All sorts of things we can tax that probably don’t take any money from YOUR pocket. "
Um, liberals and leftists smoke (god, do they smoke). Many of them are "rich" (witness all the bitching about "limousine liberals". Military spending is coming equally from the pockets of the liberals/left as it is from everyone else.
So I don’t get this claim that liberals want to spend money that doesn’t come out of their own pockets. It seems more accurate to say that liberals are willing to spend more of everyone’s tax dollars–including their own–to solve what they see as the nation’s most pressing problems.
I have the feeling that if you wanted to prove that 2+2=5, you would certainly give it a whirl!!!
I thought I stated rather clearly that I have no proof, and that this is a “suggestion” and a “thought experiment”.
Corporal punishment is archaic. It is a festering ground for sadists. There’s very little positive in physical punishment.
1) Corporal punishment is “old”. Though I believe from your statement you’re also saying it’s “outdated”.
2) And then you make two statements that portray themselves as fact. It’s a festering ground for sadists? Really? Were you spanked as a child? Know anyone who was? Do you think your/their parents were sadists?
3) There’s very little positive in physical punishment? I suppose that depends on what you mean by “very little.” In certain circumstances, it works very well indeed. The question is, would it work in these circumstances?
And compared to all that, you think that corporal punishment is a major difference between now and then just because you want to validate it???
The example I was using was that of public schools. And yes, I believe corporal punishment was among the larger factors that affected student behavior in those schools. It probably also has an interesting correlation with a lot of the politeness and responsibility that you mention as well, but that’s pure speculation on my part.
I don’t know that re-introducing corporal punishment would be the best thing we could do, but I believe that if done in a careful, responsible way, it could help a great deal.
Folks on this thread might find this site interesting:
http://www.debatabase.org/details.asp?topicID=109
I do find it interesting that on cvillenews, where I usually see a lot of anti-government sentiment (in the sense of "govt is Big Brother with too much power"), here’s this thread supporting what is essentially giving government the power to beat citizens. It strikes me that we don’t admire much about the nations that do use corporal punishment, and it strikes me that it’s no coincidence that corporal punishment in those nations seems to go hand-in-hand with the abrogation of a lot of the freedoms we hold dear. (Think Taliban, Taliban, Taliban…)
The question for me is this: can we have it both ways, a society in which individual freedoms are respected to the unprecedent degree that we currently enjoy AND have a government that we empower to beat people? i don’t see anywhere else in the world where that has worked out.
The question for me is this: can we have it both ways, a society in which individual freedoms are respected to the unprecedent degree that we currently enjoy AND have a government that we empower to beat people?
Please note that I’m not asking if we should remove due process. The only thing that would change would be the penalty side of the equation, not the process that determines whether a penalty should apply.
The process in the "due process" is far from perfect. Although nothing is in fact perfect, this process is more imperfect than it is valuable, IMHO.
As I said, I’m talking about ‘Raze and Rebuild’ here, not tweaking a corrupt and dysfunctional system. The latest national scandals are just the tip of the iceberg, as we shall witness over the next 2 decades.
This is how many low-income Americans feel and that’s why we are seeing a constant rise in societal problems, such as crime and debauchery. When there’s no trust in a system to ultimately provide a modicum of fairness to a majority of people, then all hell will break lose. I don’t think we’re at critical mass yet, but it’s coming.
I guess they won’t be given any special treatment (being white). Interesting how this compares to the black assailants of UVA students last year. I’m listening, but I don’t hear Police chief Timothy Longo saying "these are our kids, on both sides, victims and suspects" now.
Jay